Tory UK EU Exit Referendum

[newbie]

Well, these are largely down to Europes history of workers struggles, a comparatively early developing industrial working class that flexed its muscles and imposed various kinds of settlement upon capital. These have, unsurprisingly, contradictory results - the place of TU's on German boards means some of the worst practises of international capital may be avoided, but only at a price of a wider social 'peace' - which is obviously far from perfect, and also breaking down now (the NU refused to have such a deal here in the mines, by the by). There is no inherent difference between the two models - and Germany is different even within Europe, exploiting its dominant economic position to be the one country in the EU that really benefits from neolib rules with its trade surplus - but the history of those struggles mean capital has a slightly different starting point.

yes history. yes conditions. indeed yes trajectory.

But now is now and if Monbiot is right, and I think he's made good points, one of the aspects of the choice in front of us is which plutocracy we wish to be most closely aligned with. Unless there's an immediate and huge capital shift, for the next while we'll have British capitalists trying to push politicans to create conditions that suit them. British capitalists that take their cues from role models abroad. Did anyone but me read the articles about Bamford and JCB workers up there ^^? or Ashley, or BHS... Are their cues coming from the German model or the American one?

In theory I agree with you, capital is indivisible, all it cares about is profit. But this isn't about theory, it's about real people and their lives.

 

[J Ed]

yes history. yes conditions. indeed yes trajectory.

But now is now and if Monbiot is right, and I think he's made good points, one of the aspects of the choice in front of us is which plutocracy we wish to be most closely aligned with. Unless there's an immediate and huge capital shift, for the next while we'll have British capitalists trying to push politicans to create conditions that suit them. British capitalists that take their cues from role models abroad. Did anyone but me read the articles about Bamford and JCB workers up there ^^? or Ashley, or BHS... Are their cues coming from the German model or the American one?

In theory I agree with you, capital is indivisible, all it cares about is profit. But this isn't about theory, it's about real people and their lives.

Remind me, which way does the US government want us to vote? The US gov wants us to stay in, desperately, and they always have done. Not for nothing did de Gaulle call Britain the US' trojan horse in Europe.

 

[J Ed]

Funny to see Darling lining up alongside Osborne as Osborne delivers his fiscal waterboarding speech because the Tories can't get McDonnell to do it, the absolute desperation of it.

 

[Pickman's model]

Funny to see Darling lining up alongside Osborne as Osborne delivers his fiscal waterboarding speech because the Tories can't get McDonnell to do it, the absolute desperation of it.

yesterday's man talking beside the day before yesterday's man.

 

[redsquirrel]

I'm amazed that they think this stunt is actually going to win voters over, I know I'm not in the UK but I just see it as showing how desperate they are, and how all politicians eat from the same trough.

 

[newbie]

Remind me, which way does the US government want us to vote? The US gov wants us to stay in, desperately, and they always have done. Not for nothing did de Gaulle call Britain the US' trojan horse in Europe.

yep, that's a very good point.

 

[brogdale]

yeah, course, silly me.

That accounts for most of Europe having some sort of socialised healthcare while US capital prevents any hint of that; it accounts for why eg German boards have worker representation, 50% in larger companies. See here for the detail, and you can poke around there to see how other European countries work if you're interested. I'm sure American companies are all too willing to implement something similar, just like British companies have. oh.

Those differences that do exist between the US & EU 'social contracts' are, though, legacy differences that relate to the differential level of concession that capital felt necessary in the (pre-neoliberal) era of genuine system competition. They do not reflect the inevitable dilution of working people's conditions that financialised capital now demands, and feels able to demand free from fear.

 

[belboid]

Those differences that do exist between the US & EU 'social contracts' are, though, legacy differences that relate to the differential level of concession that capital felt necessary in the (pre-neoliberal) era of genuine system competition. They do not reflect the inevitable dilution of working people's conditions that financialised capital now demands, and feels able to demand free from fear.

Nothing is inevitable.

Except the struggle

 

[brogdale]

Nothing is inevitable.

Except the struggle

Yes, quite right....should have said "They do not reflect the inevitable continuing pressure for dilution of working people's conditions.."

 

[newbie]

Those differences that do exist between the US & EU 'social contracts' are, though, legacy differences that relate to the differential level of concession that capital felt necessary in the (pre-neoliberal) era of genuine system competition. They do not reflect the inevitable dilution of working people's conditions that financialised capital now demands, and feels able to demand free from fear.

they reflect the situation as it is now, as it affects real people and their lives.

As a small country with a big economy, occupying the geographic and cultural position we do, we are choosing which trajectory we wish to align towards. It may be of interest to consider how the competing models got to where they are today, but to my mind where they're going is much more important.

You're right, there is "continuing pressure for dilution of working people's conditions" and in a globalised world capitalists will attempt to even out the differences in the name of competitiveness. Different current conditions and the willpower of the working populations will help determine how that plays out. If it takes only a week before the conditions of German and American workers are fully aligned there's no point in having this conversation. If it takes 50 years there's an awful lot of point. I don't know how long it will take, but in just over a week we'll know which trajectory we're going to follow.

 

[DotCommunist]

Funny to see Darling lining up alongside Osborne as Osborne delivers his fiscal waterboarding speech because the Tories can't get McDonnell to do it, the absolute desperation of it.

they had that fucking robot in to do the scots indyreff fear bits. Bailed out by brown. Its cos he looks like a bank manager. little round eichmann specs

 

[teqniq]

You could not make this shit up

Pro-Brexit flotilla boat involved in £63 million fishing fraud

A flagship of the pro-Brexit flotilla currently sailing up the Thames was involved in the UK’s largest ever frauds involving illegal catches of fish, it has emerged.

The Christina S, a 72-metre-long pelagic trawler, is one of two largest vessels taking part in the river protest organised by Scottish skippers heading to Westminster to call for the UK’s withdrawal from the EU....

and...

Farage and Geldof clash in rival flotillas in bizarre 'battle for the Thames'

Boats carrying the Ukip leader Nigel Farage and the prominent Remain supporter Sir Bob Geldof have clashed in a bizarre "battle for the Thames" ahead of the EU referendum...

 

[DotCommunist]

I think we still have time for something more surreal to happen wrt EUreff but its going to have to be good to top Geldof and his Doof Boat facing down a brexit flotilla. For fucks sake.

 

[teqniq]

Indeed. Made my day.

tweet originally from article

 

[ViolentPanda]

And those ones are rubbish. What about a nice Bourbon or a Garibaldi?

You can stick your Franco-royalist Bourbons up your arse!!!

Squashed fly biscuits all the way!!!

 

[brogdale]

they reflect the situation as it is now, as it affects real people and their lives.

As a small country with a big economy, occupying the geographic and cultural position we do, we are choosing which trajectory we wish to align towards. It may be of interest to consider how the competing models got to where they are today, but to my mind where they're going is much more important.

You're right, there is "continuing pressure for dilution of working people's conditions" and in a globalised world capitalists will attempt to even out the differences in the name of competitiveness. Different current conditions and the willpower of the working populations will help determine how that plays out. If it takes only a week before the conditions of German and American workers are fully aligned there's no point in having this conversation. If it takes 50 years there's an awful lot of point. I don't know how long it will take, but in just over a week we'll know which trajectory we're going to follow.

A fair point, but not much of a rallying cry for the class?
"Hold your nose, stick with the super-state because they might kill us more slowly"?

 

[andysays]

 

[newbie]

A fair point, but not much of a rallying cry for the class?
"Hold your nose, stick with the super-state because they might kill us more slowly"?

is "Jump aboard HMS Project Wishful Thinking and speed up your demise" any better?

 

[brogdale]

is "Jump aboard Project Wishful Thinking and speed up your demise" any better?

No.

 

[newbie]

sorry I edited the one you just quoted to add to the nautical theme but you were too quick

 

[brogdale]

sorry I edited the one you just quoted to add to the nautical theme but you were too quick

Still no.

 

[belboid]

is "Jump aboard HMS Project Wishful Thinking and speed up your demise" any better?

haven't you noticed, broggers is sitting on a life raft between the two vessels trying not to fall into the sea in their wake

 

[newbie]

haven't you noticed, broggers is sitting on a life raft between the two vessels trying not to fall into the sea in their wake

just now so am I, but I'll be putting my ballot in the post tomorrow and there will be an X in one or other box.

Anyway the point stands, there are different models of capitalism, with currently different social conditions, we have to choose in whose wake we want to bob along.

 

[Smangus]

I feel like I've woken up in the middle of a real life "Passport to Pimlico" film.

 

[DotCommunist]

some of are just in the water to have a sly piss

 

[brogdale]

haven't you noticed, broggers is sitting on a life raft between the two vessels trying not to fall into the sea in their wake

There aren't two vessels, though. It's a mirage.

 

[Pickman's model]

sorry I edited the one you just quoted to add to the nautical theme but you were too quick

nauti nauti very nauti

 

[Pickman's model]

There aren't two vessels, though. It's a mirage.

no, this is a mirage

 

[brogdale]

nauti nauti very nauti

All the nice girls like a leaver

 

[2hats]

no, this is a mirage

Perhaps it is being confused with a farage, both being cruel illusions that lure the gullible to their death in the wilderness?