Tory UK EU Exit Referendum

[belboid]

Great pity that fair comment comes from ukip rather than the left on Labour and Remain
'Jeremy Corbyn Is A Champagne Socialist Who Has Betrayed His Principles' Says Arron Banks In Extraordinary Rant

mm, various lefties have made the same point. Just in a slightly less combative way.

 

[redsquirrel]

This is itself a sneer. This thread is oozing with the sneer 'liberal' against anyone who might, for instance, have concerns over losing their job.

Where are these supposed sneers against people concerned with their jobs?

As for the mad implication that people like myself, steph, BA, belboid etc are rubbing our hands in glee with the expectation that people will be losing their jobs, quite frankly fuck you.

 

[The39thStep]

mm, various lefties have made the same point. Just in a slightly less combative way.

Pity we don't hear more of them .

 

[two sheds]

They're playing Nice treaty Nasty treaty on us.

 

[J Ed]

Hilarious to see how many liberals are using value of the FTSE as evidence that Brexit is wrong. If that is the case then why not give up all pretences of democracy entirely and just do exactly what 'the market' wants at all times?

 

[Sprocket.]

Hilarious to see how many liberals are using value of the FTSE as evidence that Brexit is wrong. If that is the case then why not give up all pretences of democracy entirely and just do exactly what 'the market' wants at all times?

I thought that bridge had already been crossed and burned!

 

[gosub]

Hmm.

I used the phrase "disruption to capital".

In that Brexit would disrupt capital. It would interrupt the neo-liberal plan as implemented by the EU. It would exacerbate (already existing) divisions within the political manifestations of capital (i.e. the Tories but Labour too and various parties in other EU countries). It would exacerbate already existing division within the business community (transnational capital vs. small business etc.). I'm sure there would be an impact on the markets and the financial sector too.

But.

...but

It's just disruption, it's just interruption.

It's nothing lasting unless we take advantage of it.

Which i don't see happening.

Brexit panic and deflation drive German Bund yields below zero all the way up to 10 year so far .... Looks like Lord Owen was right - it would shake up the complacency. Bonds didn't blink at all on the Scots referendum and that was an existential crisis in a global reserve currency.

 

[brogdale]

Hilarious to see how many liberals are using value of the FTSE as evidence that Brexit is wrong. If that is the case then why not give up all pretences of democracy entirely and just do exactly what 'the market' wants at all times?

They have.

 

[gosub]

FTSE is the slot machines, bonds are the mortgage on the HOUSE

Eta
What I'm thinking on the bond market. There is a sweet spot where the market will lend you money and expect it back with a able usury over time because they have faith, the higher the usury the less faith... Negative usury and market is telling you we have faith in you- your neighbours not so much It's the time period of being the nice house in a street getting shittier that gets you

 

[Libertad]

They're playing Nice treaty Nasty treaty on us.

Good hobnob, bad hobnob.

 

[brogdale]

Where the punters are putting their money...FWIW...

 

[gosub]

If you can't move, you either try and build a moat from your increasing desperate neighbours OR give your neighbours houses a lick of paint (to confuse burglars no such thing as altruism). Choice is a matter of nation sovereignty (not ours, we already have a moat)

Longer Germany kicks the can down the road the worse it will get. And we, the UK probably only get one shot at addressing this shit

 

[gosub]

There will be immigration pressure (being in the EEA) our feet to the fire, while this shit is sorted, but an act of good faith.

OR

just about every other bollocks

 

[realitybites]

Brexit panic and deflation drive German Bund yields below zero all the way up to 10 year so far .... Looks like Lord Owen was right - it would shake up the complacency. Bonds didn't blink at all on the Scots referendum

Very interesting, if indeed this is true? I don't remember any other time in my own history, were the predictions of a vote now in the hands of the British people, has the potential to shake waves across the economy and have by all accounts EU investors scuttling to their corners. If this is really the case, I say fuck 'em let's use this opportunity to really make a change. As whatever the outcome one thing is certain, never again in my generation will our government put such an important decision into the hands of its people..

 

[gosub]

Very interesting, if indeed this is true? I don't remember any other time in my own history, were the predictions of a vote now in the hands of the British people, has the potential to shake waves across the economy and have by all accounts EU investors scuttling to their corners. If this is really the case, I say fuck 'em let's use this opportunity to really make a change. As whatever the outcome one thing is certain, never again in my generation will our government put such an important decision into the hands of its people..

Valid check WSJ . do you? market talk below article is interesting "Frankfurt traders already consider it only a matter of time when 15-year and 20-year bonds will follow suit"

 

[newbie]

Monbiot writes well. I'm a little disappointed by this article, but it certainly highlights important points.

Without sufficient public scrutiny, all political systems degenerate into the service of wealth. All end up controlled by the few with the cash, not the many with the votes. The primary democratic task is to break the nexus of money and power. So the question we face next week is this: “In which political unit can money best be resisted?” We are not embarrassed by choice. This is a contest of plutocracies
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Since the first states were established, they have sought power by making alliances. The splendid autonomy we are told a Britain out of Europe would enjoy is an illusion: we would swap one transnational system for another. The demand to leave Europe in the name of independence has long been accompanied by a desire to surrender our sovereignty to the United States. If judged by their own standards, the Brexit campaigners who foresee a stronger alliance with the US are traitors, ceding the national interest to a foreign hegemon.
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A closer alliance with the US means surrendering to a system that has been signed, sealed and delivered to the power of money. A Congress bound and gagged with dollars; a police and military machine pressed into the service of plutocracy; a media that scarcely bothers to disguise its own corruption. The political power of money there is naked, unashamed – even proud.

I think there's a great deal of sense in this. I tried floating a similar point weeks ago but got shot down by BA, and given that I've never scored in a debate with him in my life and never will, let it slide. I expected it to resurface in the wider debate but this is the first I've noticed.

Is all capitalism exactly the same, apart from a bit of window dressing? Or are the (to my mind fairly apparent) differences between the European and American models sufficient to matter? The Atlanticist tendency in British politics has long promoted our role as offshore aircraft carrier and financial entry point.

Mainstream Project Fear doesn't mention any of this because in reality they welcome it. Anyone else think it matters?

 

[TheHoodedClaw]

Fuckin' state of this

 

[brogdale]

Monbiot writes well. I'm a little disappointed by this article, but it certainly highlights important points.



I think there's a great deal of sense in this. I tried floating a similar point weeks ago but got shot down by BA, and given that I've never scored in a debate with him in my life and never will, let it slide. I expected it to resurface in the wider debate but this is the first I've noticed.

Is all capitalism exactly the same, apart from a bit of window dressing? Or are the (to my mind fairly apparent) differences between the European and American models sufficient to matter? The Atlanticist tendency in British politics has long promoted our role as offshore aircraft carrier and financial entry point.

Mainstream Project Fear doesn't mention any of this because in reality they welcome it. Anyone else think it matters?

I think there's a deal of truth in Monbiot's analysis; I'm sure that many of the tory, Brexiteer Atlanticists really believe this stuff...but it's essentially bollux. Neolib capital has no national allegiance, loyalty or regional basis.

 

[brogdale]

Sturgeon's right, of course...

Nicola Sturgeon has warned that a Brexit vote next week will lead to “a rightwing Tory takeover” of the UK, allowing a “power grab” by Conservatives who believe David Cameron and George Osborne are moderates....the first minister has said a Brexit vote would leave Scotland “vulnerable to the most rightwing Tory government in modern history.”

“If we leave Europe, they will take it as a green light to scrap workers’ rights and employment protection, slash public spending as part of their ideologically driven austerity obsession – and would target Scotland for extra cuts,” she added.

...but exactly the same could be said of remaining within the EU.

 

[belboid]

Indeed, Tom Watson going on about abolishing freedom of movement (well, of labour, not of capital, of course), the curtailing of existing rights and the opening up of more and more services to 'free' trade, not to mention ignoring the far right governments in Poland and Hungary and their restrictions on human rights....but, hey, we have to vote Remain to stop fascism!

 

[brogdale]

Fuckin' state of this

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Is all capitalism exactly the same, apart from a bit of window dressing? Or are the (to my mind fairly apparent) differences between the European and American models sufficient to matter?

Clearly there are differences. The US has virtually no worker right guarantees at state level. Minimum guaranteed holiday and sick pay: zero. Its 'hire-and-fire' model is even seen by its advocates as a virtue - 'freeing the market', or somesuch bollocks. There is also the rather terrifying tendency towards recognising the 'civil rights' of businesses. That's not window-dressing.

 

[brogdale]

 

[brogdale]

Clearly there are differences. The US has virtually no worker right guarantees at state level. Minimum guaranteed holiday and sick pay: zero. Its 'hire-and-fire' model is even seen by its advocates as a virtue - 'freeing the market', or somesuch bollocks. There is also the rather terrifying tendency towards recognising the 'civil rights' of businesses. That's not window-dressing.

Just further forward on the same trajectory?

 

[TheHoodedClaw]

Oh when will I awake from this fever dream.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Just further forward on the same trajectory?

Not really. Various worker guarantees have come in through the EU in the last 20 years. And they continue to come. It's not a simple picture of the EU pushing towards one thing. There are pushes in the other direction as well.

 

[newbie]

I think there's a deal of truth in Monbiot's analysis; I'm sure that many of the tory, Brexiteer Atlanticists really believe this stuff...but it's essentially bollux. Neolib capital has no national allegiance, loyalty or regional basis.

yeah, course, silly me.

That accounts for most of Europe having some sort of socialised healthcare while US capital prevents any hint of that; it accounts for why eg German boards have worker representation, 50% in larger companies. See here for the detail, and you can poke around there to see how other European countries work if you're interested. I'm sure American companies are all too willing to implement something similar, just like British companies have. oh.

 

[redsquirrel]

Not really. Various worker guarantees have come in through the EU in the last 20 years. And they continue to come. It's not a simple picture of the EU pushing towards one thing. There are pushes in the other direction as well.

Found those sneers against people concerned about losing their jobs yet?

 

[J Ed]

yeah, course, silly me.

That accounts for most of Europe having some sort of socialised healthcare while US capital prevents any hint of that; it accounts for why eg German boards have worker representation, 50% in larger companies. See here for the detail, and you can poke around there to see how other European countries work if you're interested. I'm sure American companies are all too willing to implement something similar, just like British companies have. oh.

What does this even mean?

 

[belboid]

yeah, course, silly me.

That accounts for most of Europe having some sort of socialised healthcare while US capital prevents any hint of that; it accounts for why eg German boards have worker representation, 50% in larger companies. See here for the detail, and you can poke around there to see how other European countries work if you're interested. I'm sure American companies are all too willing to implement something similar, just like British companies have. oh.

Well, these are largely down to Europes history of workers struggles, a comparatively early developing industrial working class that flexed its muscles and imposed various kinds of settlement upon capital. These have, unsurprisingly, contradictory results - the place of TU's on German boards means some of the worst practises of international capital may be avoided, but only at a price of a wider social 'peace' - which is obviously far from perfect, and also breaking down now (the NU refused to have such a deal here in the mines, by the by). There is no inherent difference between the two models - and Germany is different even within Europe, exploiting its dominant economic position to be the one country in the EU that really benefits from neolib rules with its trade surplus - but the history of those struggles mean capital has a slightly different starting point.