Tory UK EU Exit Referendum

[butchersapron]

It's not for me to call myself socrates...

 

[newbie]

<looks up socrates>
<reads the following>

Through his portrayal in Plato's dialogues, Socrates has become renowned for his contribution to the field of ethics, and it is this Platonic Socrates who lends his name to the concepts of Socratic irony and the Socratic method, or elenchus. The latter remains a commonly used tool in a wide range of discussions, and is a type of pedagogy in which a series of questions is asked not only to draw individual answers, but also to encourage fundamental insight into the issue at hand. Plato's Socrates also made important and lasting contributions to the field of epistemology, and his ideologies and approach have proven a strong foundation for much Western philosophy that has followed.

<gives up>

if that was a crack at me I'm sure it was well deserved

 

[Mr Moose]

Some of us have put forward arguments for pro-left exit (or at least, why this pro-EU positioning isn't all its cracked up to be). If anything, it has been the liberals on here just lazily going down the BUT bad Tories/Farage/Gove/Racists/Galloway without really offering any more deeper critiques (not all, I've seen some excellent pro-left remain, or at least anti-leave arguments too).

After all, let's look at some of your considered analysis:

Guilty as charged. I apologise for the more intemperate tones.

 

[stethoscope]

Yup: This terrifying Rupert Murdoch quote is possibly the best reason to stay in the EU yet

TERRIFYING!11!!11

Jesus.

 

[two sheds]

TERRIFYING!11!!11

Jesus.

They probably couldn't decide between that and ''This HILARIOUS quote will leave you giggling all day'

 

[redsquirrel]

I agree. It's about as crass as portraying support for the EU as solely support for neoliberalism.

The level of argument here is feeble. Every so often one of you shouts 'liberal wanker' as if that is the argument to win all arguments.

If any of the things you care about are advanced by the massive shot in the arm for right wing politics Brexit would be then frankly I'll be very happy and surprised. I suspect though it means even bigger debt, more austerity, harsher rules, more inequality, more populist solutions.

But for the hard of thinking liberal wankers on here take us around the block again on how this massive blow to the status quo is going to put neo-liberalism on the back foot please. I utterly accept why people are pissed off and why they want to give two fingers to the establishment.

There's a whole of snide assumptions and dishonesty in this post.

First of all the use of support in the 1st paragraph, where support has become (either deliberately or accidentally I'm not sure) a synonym for voting remain. This is absolute nonsense, as much nonsense as arguing that because people vote Tory/Labour/LibDem/etc they don't support the re-nationalisation of the railways. Or that if people voted Labour in 2005 they must have Iraq War supporters. Many (most?) Remain voters, and certainly most of those on the Left don't support the EU at all, they simple consider staying in the EU a better alternative than leaving.

It's for that reason that I haven't simply called everyone who has said they support Remain liberal wankers. I (and I'm not alone here) have repeatedly said that I believe there are arguments for voting remain from a left wing basis. I think they are wrong, but I don't think the people holding such a viewpoint are liberals or wankers or stupid. I've certainly called some Remain supporters liberals (and I stand by those comments) but's because of the reasons they are arguing for a Remain vote not because they are arguing for a Remain vote alone.

As for the last paragraph, well I've not seen anyone on U75 argue that a successful Leave vote is going to be a "massive blow to the status quo is going to put neo-liberalism on the back foot". What I have seen people argue is that it will disrupt capital, and that opens up possibilities for labour.

 

[Pickman's model]

There's a whole of snide assumptions and dishonesty in this post.

First of all the use of support in the 1st paragraph, where support has become (either deliberately or accidentally I'm not sure) a synonym for voting remain. This is absolute nonsense, as much nonsense as arguing that because people vote Tory/Labour/LibDem/etc they don't support the re-nationalisation of the railways. Or that if people voted Labour in 2005 they must have Iraq War supporters. Many (most?) Remain voters, and certainly most of those on the Left don't support the EU at all, they simple consider staying in the EU a better alternative than leaving.

It's for that reason that I haven't simply called everyone who has said they support Remain liberal wankers. I (and I'm not alone here) have repeatedly said that I believe there are arguments for voting remain from a left wing basis. I think they are wrong, but I don't think the people holding such a viewpoint are liberals or wankers or stupid. I've certainly called some Remain supporters liberals (and I stand by those comments) but's because of the reasons they are arguing for a Remain vote not because they are arguing for a Remain vote alone.

As for the last paragraph, well I've not seen anyone on U75 argue that a successful Leave vote is going to be a "massive blow to the status quo is going to put neo-liberalism on the back foot". What I have seen people argue is that it will disrupt capital, and that opens up possibilities for labour.

to be fair i thought it was one of his better posts

 

[Artaxerxes]

As for the last paragraph, well I've not seen anyone on U75 argue that a successful Leave vote is going to be a "massive blow to the status quo is going to put neo-liberalism on the back foot". What I have seen people argue is that it will disrupt capital, and that opens up possibilities for labour.

The trouble is labour (or indeed the Labour party) hasn't got the solidarity to capitalise on any shocks to the system it needs to rewrite the narrative. The support base for the left over the last 30 years has practically died. The most we've managed was a few weeks of protesting outside St Pauls with Occupy but theres been no changes.

The overwhelming picture I'm seeing is of a country sliding ever further to the right and towards domination by the elite few, businesses and politicians and media barons calling the shots and I can only see that getting worse should Leave win.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

To be clear about what is meant by 'disrupt capital', this presumably means, among other things, economic recession and people losing their jobs. Aside from the individual hardship this entails, is that opening up possibilities for labour, or closing them off?

It seems painfully simplistic to me to say 'bosses want it therefore we shouldn't'.

 

[weltweit]

Union leaders emphasise the three main reasons to vote Remain in EU referendum

Vote for jobs. Vote for protections at work. And vote for a better future for your family. Vote Remain on June 23.

Frances O’Grady, General Secretary, Trades Union Congress

Len McCluskey, General Secretary, UNITE

Dave Prentis, General Secretary, UNISON

Tim Roache, General Secretary, GMB

John Hannett, General Secretary, Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers

Cathy Warwick, Chief Executive, Royal College of Midwives

Roy Rickhuss, General Secretary, Community

Dave Ward, Communication Workers Union

Manuel Cortes, Transport Salaried Staffs Association

Gerry Morrissey, General Secretary, Broadcasting, Entertainment, Cinematograph and Theatre Union

John Smith, General Secretary, Musician’s Union

Brian Rye – General Secretary of UCATT

 

[stethoscope]

Alternatively... ASLEF, BFAWU, RMT - rmt

Joint Union Statement Supporting a Leave Vote

A united Labour Movement

Many great figures of the Labour moment such as Tony Benn, Michael Foot and Bob Crow were firmly against the EU. Millions of Labour voters oppose the EU and we believe a similar number of trade unionists support withdrawal.

Whatever the result of the EU referendum the Labour and Trade Union movement will continue to fight against injustice and austerity.

The EU is anti-worker and cannot be reformed

We support a Leave vote in the forthcoming referendum because we believe the EU acts overwhelmingly in the interests of big business and against the interests of workers.

We note that David Cameron secured only very minor changes to EU rules and believe this demonstrates that there is little hope of reforming the EU.

The myth of the EU and workers’ rights

It’s a myth that the EU has won workers’ rights and protections for workers. Nearly all the laws that protect workers in Britain are UK laws which have been won by the struggles and campaigns of the British trade union and Labour movement.

In fact, the EU and its European Court of Justice have accelerated their policy agenda which attacks trade union rights, job protections and wages.

Defend our NHS and progressive legislation

The TTIP trade agreement being negotiated between the EU and the United States will promote big business at the expense of sovereign governments and their organisations including our NHS. Environmental regulations, employment rights, food safety, privacy laws and many other safeguards will also be secondary to the right of corporations to make even bigger profits.

The threat to democracy and from the far right

The majority of the laws which affect our lives are now made in the EU and not the UK. This is a major problem because a distant link between law makers and the electorate creates a vacuum which could be exploited by the far right. Big decisions such as TTIP are being made with very little regard for democratic oversight and cannot be reversed at the ballot box.

Internationalism not isolationism

We are internationalists. We believe workers throughout the world, in Britain, America and Asia, as well as Europe, have more in common with each other than the heads of big business in their own countries. Out of the EU and into the world.

No fortress Britain. No Fortress Europe

Unlike UKIP and others we don’t believe Britain should be an island unto itself. Our country, and indeed many countries, are nations of immigrants. We want everyone to get a fair rate for the job and everyone to have the same rights at work.

We don’t support fortress Britain and so we don’t support fortress Europe. We profoundly regret that children and families fleeing poverty, persecution and war not being allowed in to Europe.

The challenge we need to address is not the distribution of people around the world it is the distribution of wealth and resources. There is enough wealth for everyone’s needs.

 

[stethoscope]

And whilst a member of Unison myself, I'd rather wish it was more like RMT and ASLEF for various reasons.

 

[belboid]

Alternatively... ASLEF, BFAWU, RMT - rmt

which is a pretty good statement, apart from the bizarre beginning 'Look, some famous dead people would very probably have supported us'

 

[J Ed]

 

[Pickman's model]

yeh. but bookmakers odds are at least in part determined by people shovelling money on. and if you can get better odds on brexit then people will chuck a few quid on there.

 

[Santino]

I was in a work-related meeting yesterday that had quite a few junior members of the Establishment in it*. One of them said he did not know anyone whose opinion he respected who was intending to vote Leave. Several of them seemed utterly baffled at the idea that anyone with a working brain could consider voting anything other than Remain. They seemed to think it was all to do with a fear of immigrants.

* E.g. an investment banker, a former diplomat, a TV producer, a retired academic - that sort.

 

[nuffsaid]

Brexit Land - I'm really wanting someone to make a spoof of Brexit using the music to Soft Cell's 'Bedsit Land'.

 

[J Ed]

I was in a work-related meeting yesterday that had quite a few junior members of the Establishment in it*. One of them said he did not know anyone whose opinion he respected who was intending to vote Leave. Several of them seemed utterly baffled at the idea that anyone with a working brain could consider voting anything other than Remain. They seemed to think it was all to do with a fear of immigrants.

* E.g. an investment banker, a former diplomat, a TV producer, a retired academic - that sort.

It's increasingly obvious that this vote has become a vote on the status quo. Are you reasonably content with your lot in Britain 2016? You will probably vote remain. Otherwise you are likely not to give a shit about threats of the worse future for you and your kids that you have already resigned yourself to.

 

[DotCommunist]

I was in a work-related meeting yesterday that had quite a few junior members of the Establishment in it*. One of them said he did not know anyone whose opinion he respected who was intending to vote Leave. Several of them seemed utterly baffled at the idea that anyone with a working brain could consider voting anything other than Remain. They seemed to think it was all to do with a fear of immigrants.

* E.g. an investment banker, a former diplomat, a TV producer, a retired academic - that sort.

the left exit case hasn't had a look in. Thats why some folk get to paint all leavers as thick racist proley cunts who haven't thought it through.

 

[DotCommunist]

if by some miracle we do vote leave the acceptable bigotry of bashing the w/c that liberals like so much will reach fever pitch and the memes produced will break the internet.

 

[J Ed]

the left exit case hasn't had a look in. Thats why some folk get to paint all leavers as thick racist proley cunts who haven't thought it through.

Not really surprising though is it? Suits almost all political parties to pretend that left critiques of the EU don't exist.

 

[J Ed]

if by some miracle we do vote leave the acceptable bigotry of bashing the w/c that liberals like so much will reach fever pitch and the memes produced will break the internet.

I genuinely believe that the primary motivation of a lot of the anti-Brexit people is the chance to punch down at working-class voters, they enjoy that far more than they care about the EU. If that wasn't the case then they would at least pretend not to be bigots because it is so obvious that this sneering is driving a not inconsiderable amount of the leave vote.

 

[DotCommunist]

'we'll come for your pensions' is another great one. I didn't hear it but ma said she heard vague pension related threats on the wireless. This is why we need credit unions. I wouldn't trust them to go shop and get me a bag of sweets without swindling me some how

 

[teqniq]

I genuinely believe that the primary motivation of a lot of the anti-Brexit people is the chance to punch down at working-class voters, they enjoy that far more than they care about the EU. If that wasn't the case then they would at least pretend not to be bigots because it is so obvious that this sneering is driving a not inconsiderable amount of the leave vote.

With this in mind have a look at this charming individual:

Labour unrest in France needs to be defeated to avoid another financial crash

Cross-posted on Nuit Debout thread

 

[stethoscope]

With this in mind have a look at this charming individual:

Labour unrest in France needs to be defeated to avoid another financial crash

Fucking hell, but then...

Satyajit Das writes the Das Capital Column in The Independent. He has worked in financial markets for over 35 years, as a banker, a corporate treasurer and now as a consultant.

 

[chilango]

I'm tending towards a "Remain" vote.

Not because I agree with the arguments put forward for it. I tend to agree with the "Left Exit" arguments, if anything, though frankly I'm not hugely convinced by them either.

No, I'm tending towards "Remain" because I don't think there are any "left" or pro-working class forces in position to exploit or take advantage of any cracks opened up by disruption to capital that might be cause by exit. There are however plenty of anti-working class and right-wing forces ready and waiting to leap in. I'm not sure I want to give them the chance whilst we are so unprepared.

...but that's just my thoughts right now. I'm not convinced I'm right.

 

[J Ed]

I did a yougov survey yesterday which asked me the usual questions asked on the EU Ref with a few extra ones that I thought were interesting. They asked whether I thought there was a chance that the EU Ref would be rigged and whether Mi5 were actively working against Brexit.

 

[chilango]

I did a yougov survey yesterday which asked me the usual questions asked on the EU Ref with a few extra ones that I thought were interesting. They asked whether I thought there was a chance that the EU Ref would be rigged and whether Mi5 were actively working against Brexit.

Ooh. I've not had that one!

 

[teuchter]

I don't think there are any "left" or pro-working class forces in position to exploit or take advantage of any cracks opened up by disruption to capital that might be cause by exit.

The fact this particular argument for leaving tends to be expressed using this kind of language is a clue that it's pie in the sky. "Cracks opened up by disruption to capital" - what does this translate to in the real world? Why use these vague terms instead of giving specific examples.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The fact this particular argument for leaving tends to be expressed using this kind of language is a clue that it's pie in the sky. "Cracks opened up by disruption to capital" - what does this translate to in the real world? Why use these vague terms instead of giving specific examples.

Greece. That's disrupted capital.