Tory UK EU Exit Referendum

[teqniq]

Hahaha. They are not doing themselves any favours with shit like that are they?

 

[free spirit]

It's like top trumps this argument. Shout 'Greece' loud enough and angrily enough and all other arguments about the best we can get disappear.

The fact that the EU can't do that to the UK doesn't seem to be worth a mention either.

Vote leave to stop the EU doing something to us that they already can't do to us (but that the Tories are already doing voluntarily anyway).

 

[J Ed]

That is Leaves position. Some 'get the 'best' from the world' horseshit. It stands at odds with what many leave voters interpret 'controlling immigration' as.

It will mean a contraction of the economy unless the unemployed are coerced into those jobs the less well paid EU migrants do now. Or it means business as usual.

Isn't the unemployed being coerced into low paid, often sub-minimum wage, jobs the current state of affairs anyway? Forgive me if that's your original point anyway.

 

[pocketscience]

The fact that the EU can't do that to the UK doesn't seem to be worth a mention either.

Vote leave to stop the EU doing something to us that they already can't do to us (but that the Tories are already doing voluntarily anyway).

And your idea is to stay in and moan at them?
"You have lost a good opportunity to shut up. We are sick of you criticising us and telling us what to do. You say you hate the euro and now you want to interfere in our meetings"
It don't have to be the same tac-tic they used on greece.
We've already been slung out

 

[J Ed]

 

[Puddy_Tat]

in what way would leaving the EU benefit murdoch's business interests?

 

[teqniq]

I am wondering the same thing.

 

[Brixton Hatter]

He likes to be on the winning side.

 

[agricola]

in what way would leaving the EU benefit murdoch's business interests?

In what way would it hurt them?

 

[gosub]

God, just got shared the Brown at Coventry cathedral... Brown the man who signed Lisbon treaty but not together coz he knew he was naughty, highlighting a war atrocity that could replicated by the wrong vote in a plebiscite (why else did he deprive the public of a say?) . Leaving is leading.

 

[weltweit]

in what way would leaving the EU benefit murdoch's business interests?

Wasn't he reported as saying when he spoke Westminster took note, but Brussels just ignored him!

 

[coley]

I'd rather they stayed in place, damaged and ineffective, a fucking liability for the Tories. A new broom might get away with all kinds of shit during their honeymoon period.

Aye there is that, the pair of them hanging on,getting slagged off by all and sundry, it's a comforting thought

 

[coley]

I don't count myself as part of the ruling classes but I see my future as part of a wider Europe.

And I don't see the EU as a gravy train.

Only because you and I and untold millions will never be given a ticket for that particular train.

 

[Mr Moose]

Isn't the unemployed being coerced into low paid, often sub-minimum wage, jobs the current state of affairs anyway? Forgive me if that's your original point anyway.

If leave succeeded in ushering in a new era of migration in tens of thousands there there would be many low paid jobs unfilled. Pay could rise to attract staff but more likely the coercion on those not working would increase to take crap pay.

The other alternative is to shrink the economy so the reserve army stays the same, but the whole farce is built on growth.

So most likely immigration would at least stay nearly the same or even rise as special interest groups lobby for staff like curry chefs which apparently is a job you have to be borne into. Given the ability of bureaucracy to fuck up immigration it could well rise.

Remain needed to have a stance on immigration which could have started with housing citizens, promoting social housing and should have involved banning any more buy to let ever. But of course little chance and the public see that it doesn't add up.

 

[treelover]

Corbyn to flex Labour’s muscles as alarm grows over EU referendum


Labour grandees who have held cabinet and shadow cabinet positions, including Charles Clarke, Ed Balls, Charlie Falconer, Harriet Harman, Alan Johnson, Jacqui Smith, Alan Milburn and Jack Straw, also released a joint statement warning that leaving the EU would hit public services and frontline workers.

Corbyn to flex Labour’s muscles as alarm grows over EU referendum

Why on earth do they think most of the lot will make any impact with working class old labour who had given up on the Blairites, etc.

 

[Wilf]

Still don't think remain will win. Think we are still at the protest stage and the status quo option will become the safe option as the day approaches. It's not so much that, ahem, 'project fear' will make converts, just sow enough doubt. Perhaps see the polls floating back to small leads for remain in the last 5 days, followed by a clear victory in the ballot (who knows, 54-46?).

Having said all that, brexit are ahead on most of the polls in the last 3 weeks (scroll down the link):

Opinion polling for the United Kingdom European Union membership referendum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Casually Red]

If this doesn't clinch it nothing will . The dirty , disgusting Teutonic bastard .



Actual real proper " arsebiscuits "

Mein gott . Sodom und Gomorrah .

 

[two sheds]

Good (i.e. cynical) reasoning by Cameron by the way - how do we get the oldies' vote? Pensions will be threatened if we leave.

 

[Casually Red]

Stop deflecting the issue . You saw what that German just did .

 

[two sheds]

what?

 

[teqniq]

Pretty much.

 

[Wilf]

Stop deflecting the issue . You saw what that German just did .

I'm sure he'll let you have a sniff.

 

[discokermit]

the odds for brexit are plummeting. on matchbook a few weeks ago it was 15/4 (4.75). dropped a bit when the purdah thing started, slowly declined since then. was about 7/4 (2.75) four hours ago, 8/5 (2.6) now.

 

[discokermit]

2.59 now.

 

[discokermit]

2.55

 

[redsquirrel]

I think I missed the bit where anyone on the Leave side suggested we would do anything but turn our back even further on those things.

The RMT have, posters on U75 have. The mainstream Vote Leave haven't of course but to pretend that these people are the only Leave voices is as stupid as pretending that the only Remain voices are Cameron, Blair, the CBI etc.

To dismiss all those that will vote for leave as stupid racists is a pathetic trick by liberal wankers.

 

[Mr Moose]

The RMT have, posters on U75 have. The mainstream Vote Leave haven't of course but to pretend that these people are the only Leave voices is as stupid as pretending that the only Remain voices are Cameron, Blair, the CBI etc.

To dismiss all those that will vote for leave as stupid racists is a pathetic trick by liberal wankers.

I agree. It's about as crass as portraying support for the EU as solely support for neoliberalism.

The level of argument here is feeble. Every so often one of you shouts 'liberal wanker' as if that is the argument to win all arguments.

If any of the things you care about are advanced by the massive shot in the arm for right wing politics Brexit would be then frankly I'll be very happy and surprised. I suspect though it means even bigger debt, more austerity, harsher rules, more inequality, more populist solutions.

But for the hard of thinking liberal wankers on here take us around the block again on how this massive blow to the status quo is going to put neo-liberalism on the back foot please. I utterly accept why people are pissed off and why they want to give two fingers to the establishment.

 

[stethoscope]

The level of argument here is feeble. Every so often one of you shouts 'liberal wanker' as if that is the argument to win all arguments.

Some of us have put forward arguments for pro-left exit (or at least, why this pro-EU positioning isn't all its cracked up to be). If anything, it has been the liberals on here just lazily going down the BUT bad Tories/Farage/Gove/Racists/Galloway without really offering any more deeper critiques (not all, I've seen some excellent pro-left remain, or at least anti-leave arguments too).

After all, let's look at some of your considered analysis:

Yep and anyone from the left campaigning for exit is a dimwit.

True, but being in the EU isn't going to make it even worse for anyone in the UK whereas leaving might.

Which is why you need to suck it up and vote to remain.

I don't give a shit and I'm not listening.

Much as I liked him I don't care if we cede sovereignty over the distribution of frozen sheep carcasses or whatever. The stuff that matters, education, health, defence and yes immigration is down to us to solve still.

If the old folk knew anything then maybe they would have stopped reading the Express and the Mail for their daily dose of bile. The politics of the right inclined over 50s is a 'down with that sort of thing' two fingers up to 'political correctness' or 'health and safety' new things and foreign things. The poorer ones are throwing in their lot with belligerent politicians like Boris and Farage who would not piss on them if they were on fire.

That is Leaves position. Some 'get the 'best' from the world' horseshit. It stands at odds with what many leave voters interpret 'controlling immigration' as.

It will mean a contraction of the economy unless the unemployed are coerced into those jobs the less well paid EU migrants do now. Or it means business as usual.

 

[newbie]

The level of argument here is feeble. Every so often one of you shouts 'liberal wanker' as if that is the argument to win all arguments.

No. I mean yes, I get fed up with the scattergun name calling, but the debate here is far from feeble.

I still don't know which way to vote, and have been arguing Out with Inners and In with Outers, to explore as many avenues as possible. In almost every conversation I'm told I'm raising issues no-one has raised before, asking questions that cause confusion because they're not being discussed elsewhere. Not being obsessed with immigration helps, of course, but tmm the debate here is far more comprehensive than most people are being exposed to.

 

[Whagwan]

Wasn't he reported as saying when he spoke Westminster took note, but Brussels just ignored him!

Yup: This terrifying Rupert Murdoch quote is possibly the best reason to stay in the EU yet