Too many immigration threads on UK P&P?

[butchersapron]

While experts have reached the conclusion that Schlock&Shite is still following folk around he boards, hiding behind others, so that he may snipe in comfort.

L&L = relevant contributions aren't us.

ETA: torres is not BA but someone else. Whereas you're still the same sad shite, who should have been banned long ago.

You're on a real roll here nino!

 

[nino_savatte]

You're on a real roll here nino!

Whereas you're still spreading muck.

 

[butchersapron]

Again, nino is 100% wrong. L&L is 100% correct.

 

[treelover]

Nino, all back biting and egos is damaging P/P, time for a few weeks break from urban perhaps

 

[nino_savatte]

Nino, all back biting and egos is damaging P/P, time for a few weeks break from urban perhaps

I will take no patronising advice from you, mate.

 

[nino_savatte]

Again, nino is 100% wrong. L&L is 100% correct.

Whereas torres stalks the Internet spreading nonsense wherever he goes.

Give it up, I know who you are.

 

[tbaldwin]

Nino, all back biting and egos is damaging P/P, time for a few weeks break from urban perhaps

He really could do with a break.
He jumps to all kinds of lazy conclusions over and over again and can never admit he has got things wrong..
Very difficult to debate with somebody with such a narrow mind.

 

[nino_savatte]

He really could do with a break.
He jumps to all kinds of lazy conclusions over and over again and can never admit he has got things wrong..
Very difficult to debate with somebody with such a narrow mind.

Ah, it's a love-in, mind if I crash it?

"Narrow minds" and "lazy conclusions" are your department.

 

[tbaldwin]

Ah, it's a love-in, mind if I crash it?

You seem to want to lump in anybody who disagrees with you as part of some deadly conspiracy of right wing racists etc etc
The thing is a lot of the people you hate, disagree with me and each other on many issues....
You might just have noticed me and durruti for example disagree on the LP,Immigration controls....Whether the Left need a good stong humane and handsome leader or not...etc etc....

 

[nino_savatte]

You seem to want to lump in anybody who disagrees with you as part of some deadly conspiracy of right wing racists etc etc
The thing is a lot of the people you hate, disagree with me and each other on many issues....
You might just have noticed me and durruti for example disagree on the LP,Immigration controls....Whether the Left need a good stong humane and handsome leader or not...etc etc....

Hardly, baldwin. But you would smear anyone who doesn't share your whacked out ideas on immigration and socialism. In fact, anyone who doesn't support you is either a "liberal" or worse.

You also accept many myths as fact. Britain is a nation of immigrants and, like it or not, people are going to migrate whether you accept that or not.
http://www.sovereignty.org.uk/features/articles/immig.html

Even I intend to migrate at some point.

 

[nino_savatte]

Here's an interesting article.
http://www.redflag.org.uk/frontline/four/04sectar.html

Nothing ever changes. The same auld arguments are in circulation and each time these arguments are resurrected, it is a new immigrant group who becomes the focus, the target of scapegoating and abuse.

In the 1890's it was the Jews
In the 1950's it was the West Indians and Asians
In the 1970's the Ugandan Asians were turned into scapegoats
Presently it is anyone who is either Eastern European/Middle Eastern or African.

 

[durruti02]

Here's an interesting article.
http://www.redflag.org.uk/frontline/four/04sectar.html

Nothing ever changes. The same auld arguments are in circulation and each time these arguments are resurrected, it is a new immigrant group who becomes the focus, the target of scapegoating and abuse.

In the 1890's it was the Jews
In the 1950's it was the West Indians and Asians
In the 1970's the Ugandan Asians were turned into scapegoats
Presently it is anyone who is either Eastern European/Middle Eastern or African.

the jews and ugnadan asian were refugees .. as are many africans and middle easterners today

in the 50s and 60s and even into the 7ts we had virtually full employment .. do you really not see any diofferrence between differrent (economic) periods??

and p.s. i just do NOT see scape goating on a large scale and there is littke evidence of this EVEN amongst BNP supportters ( joseph rowntree picked up on this ) .. i see anger at the state and instituations about the process


what scape goating i suspect is more related to the issue of islam

 

[durruti02]

So, the conclusion is this: there are too many immigration threads in UK P&P and they all tend to revolve around the same themes. Those who start these threads, do not appear to have any other interests apart from excoriating the "Left". This leaves us with some questions: why do they adopt the language of the Right (excoriating the "Left" is an example and dismissing opposing points of view, pejoratively as "liberal" is another)? And why do they believe all the myths, put out by parties like the Tories and the BNP, that immigrants are taking priority over "British born people" (itself a problematic term) when there is no evidence to support this? There is an industry that manufactures myths such as these and they almost always come from the Right who are ably supported by the popular press.

This current attitude to immigrants and immigration is nothing new but it has taken on a whole different character in recent years and has come to resemble the attitudes of US parties like the Know Nothings.

Does any of this look familiar?



You can replace the words "Catholic" and "Vatican" (which didn't exist in 1824, it was called the Lateran) with "Muslim", "Eastern European" or "Revived Caliphate" and it would still have the same meaning.

More here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know-Nothing_movement

the attempt to link present day discussion of immigration for cheap labour and its impact with scape goatingof catholics in ??? is nonsense


the first paragraph is of more relevance

.. " why do they adopt the language of the Right? ..... And why do they believe all the myths, put out by parties like the Tories and the BNP, that immigrants are taking priority over "British born people" ..... when there is no evidence to support this? "

firstly no one 'adopt the language of the right' ( which is simply racist) or actually 'belive all the myths' which are as myths go always false

BUT ... do you really not understand what is going on here?????? If we do NOT try to get to the bottom of what the BNP and far right say, if we do NOT try to understand what motivates BNP supporters, if we are NOT open and absolutely clear about what is fact and fiction we can not hope to oppose or destroy the BNP and its racism

you and similar who try to stop discussion on understanding of your post are making an almighty mistake

 

[treelover]

actually, we all need a moratorium for a while on immigration threads, P/P is becoming a joke....

 

[becky p]

Here's an interesting article.
http://www.redflag.org.uk/frontline/four/04sectar.html

Nothing ever changes. The same auld arguments are in circulation and each time these arguments are resurrected, it is a new immigrant group who becomes the focus, the target of scapegoating and abuse.

In the 1890's it was the Jews
In the 1950's it was the West Indians and Asians
In the 1970's the Ugandan Asians were turned into scapegoats
Presently it is anyone who is either Eastern European/Middle Eastern or African.

You may see yourself as some kind of a warrior for truth and justice nino. But you just act like a clown. Who on here has scapegoated people from Eastern Europe or Africa?

Please do answer the question.

 

[nino_savatte]

the jews and ugnadan asian were refugees .. as are many africans and middle easterners today

in the 50s and 60s and even into the 7ts we had virtually full employment .. do you really not see any diofferrence between differrent (economic) periods??

and p.s. i just do NOT see scape goating on a large scale and there is littke evidence of this EVEN amongst BNP supportters ( joseph rowntree picked up on this ) .. i see anger at the state and instituations about the process


what scape goating i suspect is more related to the issue of islam

Interestingly enough, durutti, you tried to make say that there was no distinction between refugees, immigrants and migrant workers and here you are making a distinction.

There is plenty of scapegoating and I have seen plenty of it here on U75

I don't buy this "economic migrant" canard, as it is quite evident that many leave this country for economic reasons but this is never mentioned by anti-immigrationists.

 

[nino_savatte]

actually, we all need a moratorium for a while on immigration threads, P/P is becoming a joke....

Only because you say so - eh, treelover? I'll bet you never once thought that when the immigration debate was being dominated by you, durutti and baldwin.

 

[nino_savatte]

the attempt to link present day discussion of immigration for cheap labour and its impact with scape goatingof catholics in ??? is nonsense


the first paragraph is of more relevance

.. " why do they adopt the language of the Right? ..... And why do they believe all the myths, put out by parties like the Tories and the BNP, that immigrants are taking priority over "British born people" ..... when there is no evidence to support this? "

firstly no one 'adopt the language of the right' ( which is simply racist) or actually 'belive all the myths' which are as myths go always false

BUT ... do you really not understand what is going on here?????? If we do NOT try to get to the bottom of what the BNP and far right say, if we do NOT try to understand what motivates BNP supporters, if we are NOT open and absolutely clear about what is fact and fiction we can not hope to oppose or destroy the BNP and its racism

you and similar who try to stop discussion on understanding of your post are making an almighty mistake

Actually many of you do adpot the language of the Right, particularly with regards to housing and other services. How many times have I seen "they're taking priority" with absolutely no proof to support the statement? Too many.

There is no need to "get to the bottom of what the BNP says" because it is patently obvious that the BNP relies on myths and lies to advance their arguments.

the attempt to link present day discussion of immigration for cheap labour and its impact with scape goatingof catholics in ??? is nonsense

You deliberately miss the point to advance your own strawman. There remains a fear and suspicion of immigrants. Perhaps you disagree with that but it is, nonetheless, true. Though you and treelover consistently deny it at every turn. Why you insist on doing this is anyone's guess.

 

[durruti02]

Interestingly enough, durutti, you tried to make say that there was no distinction between refugees, immigrants and migrant workers and here you are making a distinction.

There is plenty of scapegoating and I have seen plenty of it here on U75

I don't buy this "economic migrant" canard, as it is quite evident that many leave this country for economic reasons but this is never mentioned by anti-immigrationists.

ok either you have a very short memory or you are lieing .. i made a VERY clear disticntion between these categories .. on your demand a few weeks ago ..

 

[becky p]

There is plenty of scapegoating and I have seen plenty of it here on U75

That is possibly down to the fact that your responsible for the vast majority of it.

You think that anybody who disagrees with you is part of some big bad racist conspiracy. Probably all related and members of the BNP.

It's an idiotic way to conduct a debate.

As about 30 different posters have tried to tell you in the last couple of months.

 

[durruti02]

actually, we all need a moratorium for a while on immigration threads, P/P is becoming a joke....

fair play treelover .. it doesn't look great .. but id suggest the joke is how long it is taking for socialists on here to understand the deal with migration .. and that there are not more other interesting threads er NOT ' cwi member arrested in bolivia' FFS ..

p.s. what happened to my Rootshock and year zero threads ..



p.s. actually i think migration is THE major isue in this country at the moment .. and that is why it stays at the top of POLITICS thread .. it is the lynchpin of a number of issues (housing/ wages/ID cards .. so many issues are brought back to migration by the press and bnp )

.. and i think is the issue we CAN defeat the far right on AND use it to springboard a left revival .. ironically and the left have NOT sussed it , current immigration is an (THE??) achilles heel for the far right .. they can only think in terms of racism .. this should and could be an open goal for the left

 

[nino_savatte]

ok either you have a very short memory or you are lieing .. i made a VERY clear disticntion between these categories .. on your demand a few weeks ago ..

If you can't get your own way, you smear and then get your dimwit pals to make up the numbers. Pathetic.

You should hang out with some of the nutters on ME. I'm sure you could double up as Rachamim18's wingman.

 

[nino_savatte]

fair play treelover .. it doesn't look great .. but id suggest the joke is how long it is taking for socialists on here to understand the deal with migration .. and that there are not more other interesting threads er NOT ' cwi member arrested in bolivia' FFS ..

p.s. what happened to my Rootshock and year zero threads ..



p.s. actually i think migration is THE major isue in this country at the moment .. and that is why it stays at the top of POLITICS thread .. it is the lynchpin of a number of issues (housing/ wages/ID cards .. so many issues are brought back to migration by the press and bnp )

.. and i think is the issue we CAN defeat the far right on AND use it to springboard a left revival .. ironically and the left have NOT sussed it , current immigration is an (THE??) achilles heel for the far right .. they can only think in terms of racism .. this should and could be an open goal for the left

You and treelover would say that because you're getting your arses kicked good style.

You're singularly obsessed with immigration and you even say "actually i think migration is THE major isue in this country at the moment". Er, no it isn't; there are far more pressing issues in this country and immigration provides a useful diversion. Face the facts, durutti, you have been conned.

 

[durruti02]

If you can't get your own way, you smear and then get your dimwit pals to make up the numbers. Pathetic.

You should hang out with some of the nutters on ME. I'm sure you could double up as Rachamim18's wingman.

que?? baseless accusations!! nino ...debate engage please!!

i simply said i had replied to you on this earlier!! that refugees were mainly pushed and that ANY DECENT society should take them in , and that economic migrants in the current period were mainly pull ..

 

[durruti02]

You and treelover would say that because you're getting your arses kicked good style.

You're singularly obsessed with immigration and you even say "actually i think migration is THE major isue in this country at the moment". Er, no it isn't; there are far more pressing issues in this country and immigration provides a useful diversion. Face the facts, durutti, you have been conned.

i have said MANY times that, as issues, as practical activity goes, OF COURSE there are a million more issues to be involved with .. in my day to day as a union steward immigration is irelevent ..

BUT in the background it IS relevent .. as i have said before the bosses could not have carried out their 'drive to the bottom' without the use and abuse of immigrants.

when i say it is fundamental i do not mean we should drop what we do to campign against immigration .. it is that theoreticaly we need to understand how the processes are working and then adjust our prop. and campaigning .. it will NEVER mean an attack on migrants but on the bosses for abusing cheap labour

and when i say it is a key issue this adjustment is neccessary for us to be listened to in the w/c now .. who see quite clearly what is happennning and DO NOT Blame the migrants ..

it is only the left ansd the BNP who will not come out loud and clear and attack the bosses on this

p.s. i think treelover was having a go at us all .. me included!

 

[nino_savatte]

que?? baseless accusations!! nino ...debate engage please!!

i simply said i had replied to you on this earlier!! that refugees were mainly pushed and that ANY DECENT society should take them in , and that economic migrants in the current period were mainly pull ..

So how about making an effort to clarify what you're saying instead of hiding behind a series of meaningless phrases? Better still how about being a wee bit more honest about what you're saying?

You continue to moan about immigration and you come out with mealy mouthed sentences like "refugees were mainly pushed and that ANY DECENT society should take them in" and then, on other threads, you immediately contradict this carefully crafted faux position by demanding controls. You also continue to labour under the misapprehension that "immigrants take priority" in social housing without a shred of evidence to support your claim. When I told you that I had worked in social housing and that I know how properties are allocated, you, treelover and brasicattack immediately suggested that I was lying. Why? Because the truth undermines your mythologically based assumptions to the contrary.

 

[nino_savatte]

i have said MANY times that, as issues, as practical activity goes, OF COURSE there are a million more issues to be involved with .. in my day to day as a union steward immigration is irelevent ..

BUT in the background it IS relevent .. as i have said before the bosses could not have carried out their 'drive to the bottom' without the use and abuse of immigrants.

when i say it is fundamental i do not mean we should drop what we do to campign against immigration .. it is that theoreticaly we need to understand how the processes are working and then adjust our prop. and campaigning .. it will NEVER mean an attack on migrants but on the bosses for abusing cheap labour

and when i say it is a key issue this adjustment is neccessary for us to be listened to in the w/c now .. who see quite clearly what is happennning and DO NOT Blame the migrants ..

it is only the left ansd the BNP who will not come out loud and clear and attack the bosses on this

p.s. i think treelover was having a go at us all .. me included!

So while you and your pals are sitting around dreaming up ways to exclude and expatriate immigrants, the country is going down the plughole and the war in Iraq and Afghanistan continues.

You continue to mutter about "processes" and how the "bosses are using cheap immigrant labour" but neither you nor treelover actually wants to see migrant workers achieve any form of economic parity. Instead you blame them for "driving down wages" when it is the bosses who do this. You keep attacking the victims not the perpetrators, this is what makes your argument so unpalatable.

 

[becky p]

You and treelover would say that because you're getting your arses kicked good style.

You're singularly obsessed with immigration and you even say "actually i think migration is THE major isue in this country at the moment". Er, no it isn't; there are far more pressing issues in this country and immigration provides a useful diversion. Face the facts, durutti, you have been conned.

Perhaps your the one who has been conned ninr perhaps your just deluded and dishonest. You still have not managed to answer my question " who on here has scapegoated africans or eastern europeans?"

You are the person on here who seems to suffer from an obsession. And everyone can see that like the BNP you may use immigration as a mask for your obsession.
But its fairly obvious what your real obsession is.

 

[nino_savatte]

The Orwellian logic of beckyp.

 

[becky p]

The Orwellian logic of beckyp.

Nino. So do you think everybody who disagrees with you is racist?