The mother of the soldier who is being allowed to freak out on air.

[DownwardDog]

These kids did not make the decision to go there and they do not get to decide when to come home.

Anybody who took the Queen's Shilling in the last five years must have had inkling that they were almost certainly going for a long walk in the Hindu Kush at some stage. Even the thickest squaddie must have realised they weren't just signing on for furtive wanking in Catterick Barracks and putting sheep shit in your mate's dinner while on exercise on Salisbury Plain.

 

[danny la rouge]

Yes, but the right wing press are using this to bash Brown and get Cameron in.

Of course, that's a point I was making earlier on in the thread: this isn't about being on Brown's side against the Sun, or being on the Sun's side against Brown.

 

[untethered]

a long walk in the Hindu Kush

Very good.

 

[weltweit]

usn marines in helmund have 130 helicopters
we have 8

8 does not sound like many.

Easyjet has more aircraft than that!

 

[Corax]

Agreed. I don't support British troops in what they do because I think what they are doing is wrong. That's a position that certain old soldiers on here cannot accept.

I'm with you on that.

The 'Support the troops, even if you don't support the war' angle doesn't work. To use an extreme and slightly silly example, it's akin to a muslim declaring 'I don't agree with extremism or Bin Laden's aims, but I support the brave suicide bombers'.

 

[Beanburger]

No, it doesn't strike me as simplistic. The government is to blame for soldiers being killed, for all who are killed in the wars it orders.

Whereas you're not at all to blame if you pick up a gun and put yourself into the line of fire?

And I think to ignore the very real fact of economic conscription is to miss a huge part of the story.

Yes, I completely agree. I'm not suggesting soldiers should be held entirely accountable for their fate, but neither do I accept that governments are entirely accountable either.

 

[trevhagl]

People who say they're on the side of the w/c should recognise that it's squaddies that have done and can stop wars.

In times like these we need some good resources on soldiers organising/mutinying

the army is the last place you'll find individual thought

 

[weltweit]

First, annoyed from England wants to congratulate the OP on a nonsensical title!

The mother of the dead soldier ... freak out on air ... sounds like some kind of failed general anasthetic...

I had no clue what this thread was about.

 

[weltweit]

This is an example of the one voter standing up to power ...

Does anyone remember the NHS patient that stood up to Blair and against whom he had no answers, well this is a similar episode for Brown and that is why the Sun are so keen on promoting it. Good for them, for the time being, if the troops are not properly equipped .. they should be .. if there are not enough helicopters .. there should be ..

What about this hanger full of Chinooks, grounded on some technicality or other? what about the Merlins from Iraq?

 

[danny la rouge]

but neither do I accept that governments are entirely accountable either.

And this is where I disagree. Wars are political decisions taken by politicians.

 

[Corax]

The armed forces recruit kids from schools. They organise "fun days" at my daughters school for S1s. That's 11 and 12-year-olds. Learning how fun being in the forces is. That is seems like a good option to some kids in some areas is hardy surprising.

Fucking scandalous, and I'll be doing my damndest to keep the proto-rax away from this kind of propaganda shit. He's only 5 at the mo, but I've already had words with the junior school to check they don't have Pied Piper Squaddies invited in to tell the kids what an exciting fun-filled time it is travelling abroad to kill people.

The other half of the recruitment scandal is the location of their recruitment offices. Ever noticed a significant pattern to where they set up?

 

[Beanburger]

....and that is why the Sun are so keen on promoting it.

Nothing to do with selling papers then?

 

[untethered]

The other half of the recruitment scandal is the location of their recruitment offices. Ever noticed a significant pattern to where they set up?

I think it's disgusting the way they traipse around the better universities looking for bright middle-class lads for Sandhurst. Some of them aren't even 20 yet!

 

[danny la rouge]

Fucking scandalous, and I'll be doing my damndest to keep the proto-rax away from this kind of propaganda shit. He's only 5 at the mo, but I've already had words with the junior school to check they don't have Pied Piper Squaddies invited in to tell the kids what an exciting fun-filled time it is travelling abroad to kill people.

I complained to the school, but they didn't get it. It was just an employer, as far as they were concerned.

The other half of the recruitment scandal is the location of their recruitment offices. Ever noticed a significant pattern to where they set up?

Yup.

 

[Corax]

the army is the last place you'll find individual thought

Navy might be more fertile ground, culturally.

I think it's disgusting the way they traipse around the better universities looking for bright middle-class lads for Sandhurst. Some of them aren't even 20 yet!

Sandhurst's a rather different prospect from basic training.

 

[weltweit]

Brown mentions in the transcript I think that he "understands their grief" .. he mentioned it in a press conference that he "understands their grief".. This is an easy thing to say but I think it is a big mistake to say it.

I think unless you have lost your own child in war, that you cannot and could not understand their grief and suggesting you do is at the very least rather patronising and at the most perhaps insulting.

 

[DownwardDog]

Fucking scandalous, and I'll be doing my damndest to keep the proto-rax away from this kind of propaganda shit.

That's probably the best way to ensure he ends up in 2 Para. Kids do love to define themselves in opposition to their parents. My old man lectured me on Imperialism (and the importance of being anti thereof) non-stop and I signed up on my 18th birthday.

 

[Corax]

That's probably the best way to ensure he ends up in 2 Para. Kids do love to define themselves in opposition to their parents.

I didn't and I doubt the boy will. It depends on your relationship.

 

[Beanburger]

I think unless you have lost your own child in war, that you cannot and could not understand their grief and suggesting you do is at the very least rather patronising and at the most perhaps insulting.

I think having lost his own child does give him some degree of insight though. Grief is grief, war or otherwise. Yeah, he's an ineffectual politician with many human failings, but that doesn't make him incapable of compassion and empathy.

 

[Corax]

Brown mentions in the transcript I think that he "understands their grief" .. he mentioned it in a press conference that he "understands their grief".. This is an easy thing to say but I think it is a big mistake to say it.

I think most will realise he's expressing empathy relating to the fact that he's tragically lost a child.

ETA: Ah, Beanburger got there first.

 

[weltweit]

I think having lost his own child does give him some degree of insight though. Grief is grief, war or otherwise. Yeah, he's an ineffectual politician with many human failings, but that doesn't make him incapable of compassion and empathy.

I think most will realise he's expressing empathy relating to the fact that he's tragically lost a child.

ETA: Ah, Beanburger got there first.

Brown's kid was stillborn no? I can only remember a little about it, but if he is using that as a justification for his empathy I think he should say it ... "as you may know, I lost my son so I have some idea of what you are going through.. "

Still it isnt the same as someone who thinks they lost their kid through lack of helicopters and body armour...

 

[untethered]

Still it isnt the same as someone who thinks they lost their kid through lack of helicopters and body armour...

Well I haven't died through a lack of helicopters and body armour. But then I haven't volunteered to join the forces.

There's a war on. People are going to get killed.

 

[Beanburger]

Brown's kid was stillborn no? I can only remember a little about it, but if he is using that as a justification for his empathy I think he should say it ... "as you may know, I lost my son so I have some idea of what you are going through.. "

Still it isnt the same as someone who thinks they lost their kid through lack of helicopters and body armour...

A "justification" for empathy? I'm not sure I follow. Empathy is something you feel.. not something you need to justify. And no, it's not the same, but it would certainly give him an insight into grief and loss.

 

[Fedayn]

Hmmm.... the 'liberal compassion' on here is hilarious. Tut tut, compassion for a solider and his family, ooo no sir, far too nationalistic and wacist....

I'd be fascinated how the wadicals on here would deal with someone like Rose Gentle whose teenage son died in Iraq in 2004. She-unsurprisingly as a bereaved and angry mother-called for better equipment for troops that another mother might not be in her place.

 

[Fedayn]

the army is the last place you'll find individual thought

Yup, that's right, they're all stupid robots.....

 

[weltweit]

A "justification" for empathy? I'm not sure I follow. Empathy is something you feel.. not something you need to justify. And no, it's not the same, but it would certainly give him an insight into grief and loss.

What he said iirc was "I understand their grief" which I thought an odd thing to say. He might have said :

I feel great sympathy for them in their loss
I send my sincerest condolences
My thoughts are with them at this difficult time
# etc

Yes empathy is something you feel, I just don't think Brown's words indicated that he felt empathy with the mother of the dead soldier.

 

[weltweit]

There's a war on. People are going to get killed.

How many MPs have children in the forces?

 

[danny la rouge]

I'd be fascinated how the wadicals on here would deal with someone like Rose Gentle whose teenage son died in Iraq in 2004.

That's a good point. She doesn't get called a 'warmongering prick' on here, does she? Why not?

 

[Ralph Masters]

How would you feel if your child went to war and because of a lack of helicopters your child bled to death?

 

[danny la rouge]

How would you feel if your child went to war and because of a lack of helicopters your child bled to death?

Who, me? Furious.