The mother of the soldier who is being allowed to freak out on air.

[tar1984]

A resource issue. Don't you think the government would be happy to equip the army to the teeth with a shit-load of cutting-edge hardware if the British public was happy to foot the tax bill?

If they can't win using the weapons they have now, against peasants with ak47's and IED's, then all the military hardware in the world wouldn't make a difference.

What this woman seems to want, as far as I can see, is for ground troops to have no contact whatsoever with enemy fighters. In case they get hurt. Rather, we should bomb the afghans into tiny pieces from the safety of the air...

 

[ymu]

A resource issue. Don't you think the government would be happy to equip the army to the teeth with a shit-load of cutting-edge hardware if the British public was happy to foot the tax bill?

If you can't afford to go to war, you don't send kids out to get killed for lack of the proper equipment. Military covenant and all that.

 

[Beanburger]

The Gray report highlights we're spunking billions on poor procurement.

Publically funded organisations are hugely wasteful. No news there.

 

[mattie]

Publically funded organisations are hugely wasteful. No news there.

Billions. That's some waste.

 

[Beanburger]

If you can't afford to go to war, you don't send kids out to get killed for lack of the proper equipment. Military covenant and all that.

Where do you draw the line? There's always more equipment that could save lives if there was a bottomless pit of money. No army in history has ever had every bit of kit on its wishlist. You don't disband the army and never go to war just because your budget is limited. If someone doesn't grasp that fact of life, then they shouldn't volunteer to join the army.

 

[Gingerman]

Its no coincidence this has all happened around Nov 11th. The Sun is just shit stirring.

If the Sun is that bothered about soldiers dying then they should campaign to get the troops out.

Somehow I dont think one of the biggest cheerleaders for the war is going to do that

 

[phildwyer]

Brown should be forced to listen to every single grieving mother who's lost a child in this war, which he supported.

Come to that, so should the British public, who re-elected the government that started the war.

Th Sun may be doing this for the wrong reasons but--for once--they're doing the right thing.

 

[ymu]

The helicopters stuff is nonsense as well. Helicopters aren't going to 'win' this conflict.

I don't think anyone's saying they will win it, they're just pointing out that it's a safer way to transport troops.

 

[Fruitloop]

The only thing the Sun is doing is ensuring that the Tories win the next election. Which will no doubt be brilliant for both the army and Afghanistan.

 

[ymu]

Where do you draw the line? There's always more equipment that could save lives if there was a bottomless pit of money. No army in history has ever had every bit of kit on its wishlist. You don't disband the army and never go to war just because your budget is limited. If someone doesn't grasp that fact of life, then they shouldn't volunteer to join the army.

The whistle-blower on MPs expenses was a soldier moonlighting to pay for his own protective gear. I think I'd draw the line some way away from where it is now, don't you?

 

[Beanburger]

The whistle-blower on MPs expenses was a soldier moonlighting to pay for his own protective gear. I think I'd draw the line some way away from where it is now, don't you?

I was under the impression we were talking about helicopters?

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

The press are manipultating people? Surely not. Poor woman seriously, but the rest is a side show. The press insult us and manipulate us every fucking day. They drooled over shock and awe, I know which is more offensive. They love death, they love making us feel small, they love to stir racism. We need to boycott the establishment media and their elite agenda as much as possible.

 

[Teaboy]

Brown should be forced to listen to every single grieving mother who's lost a child in this war, which he supported.

Come to that, so should the British public, who re-elected the government that started the war.

Th Sun may be doing this for the wrong reasons but--for once--they're doing the right thing.

Or presumably anyone who voted for a party who were pro-war. In fact were any of the major parties against the afghan invasion?

 

[Ralph Masters]

Boeing made $998 million profits in just 3 months earlier this year, they are doing well in military sales, a long protracted war with lots of bungles suits them. A Chinook costs £52 million.

 

[trevhagl]

Note the story being pushed by the Sun, a paper openly out to destroy Brown.

whilst being in favour of every single unjust war in living memory

 

[trevhagl]

The press are manipultating people? Surely not. Poor woman seriously, but the rest is a side show. The press insult us and manipulate us every fucking day. They drooled over shock and awe, I know which is more offensive. They love death, they love making us feel small, they love to stir racism. We need to boycott the establishment media and their elite agenda as much as possible.

ironically it's usually those who the media hit hardest (low paid/out of work) who buy that stinking pile of shit in the first place.

 

[mattie]

Boeing made $998 million profits in just 3 months earlier this year, they are doing well in military sales, a long protracted war with lots of bungles suits them. A Chinook costs £52 million.

They get most of that from the US DoD.

But, yep, war ain't bad for the likes of Boeing.

 

[danny la rouge]

Brown should be forced to listen to every single grieving mother who's lost a child in this war, which he supported.

Come to that, so should the British public, who re-elected the government that started the war.

Th Sun may be doing this for the wrong reasons but--for once--they're doing the right thing.

There are so many versions of bizarre on thi thread, it's hard to keep up. I really believed until now that people were capable of more subtlety of thought than displayed on this thread.

Not just you, Phil.

Blaming individual squaddies for the war is incoherent. Responsibility lies with the politicians who bring about the war, not the soldiers sent to die.

Blaming the grieving mother of a soldier for the war is incoherent. Blame the economic system, the class system that disproportionately enlists working class kids.

 

[ymu]

I was under the impression we were talking about helicopters?

Jacqui Janes was talking about helping her son buy his own protective equipment as well as the fuck-up over the chinooks and the delay sending the merlins to Afghanistan. So no, not just helicopters.

 

[Corax]

Indeed. But apparently she's a "prick". She's the only person who isn't a prick in this.

Okay, that's fair comment.

 

[rover07]

Jacqui Janes was talking about helping her son buy his own protective equipment as well as the fuck-up over the chinooks and the delay sending the merlins to Afghanistan. So no, not just helicopters.

What sort of equipment?

A helmet, body armour, shin pads?

 

[Beanburger]

What sort of equipment?

A helmet, body armour, shin pads?

Indeed. What was piece of essential equipment was he missing that would have saved his life?

 

[phildwyer]

There are so many versions of bizarre on thi thread, it's hard to keep up. I really believed until now that people were capable of more subtlety of thought than displayed on this thread.

Not just you, Phil.

Blaming individual squaddies for the war is incoherent. Responsibility lies with the politicians who bring about the war, not the soldiers sent to die.

Hang on, that's exactly what I said.

 

[Corax]

None of this is new anyway.

From 1991:

Me name is Vic Williams, I was a soldier to the Queen
I joined up to defend me country in me teens
Not to do whatever they tell you, wherever they draw the line
For the ruling class in Ulster or the capital on the Rhine

They tell you it's a good career, they tell you it's a laugh
They tell you that a pint of beer is cheaper here by half
But not so cheap as soldiers' lives - you find that out too late
When it's off you go for Texaco - gung-ho in Kuwait

They wound us up with racism to get us in the mood
For a spot of collateral damage over the price of a barrel of crude
They talk about legality but they never told me me rights
I couldn't stick their hypocrisy so I swore I wouldn't fight

They sent us down the PX to get some desert kit
For ours was in the desert with Iraqis wearing it
You couldn't hear 'Give Peace a Chance' for Bishops giving thanks
And most of the Brits that never came back got blown to bits by Yanks

They charged me with desertion but I never ran away
The officers gave me orders that me conscience couldn't obey
So I stood up, I spoke out and when the war was done
I went back to Woolwich Barracks 'cos' I wouldn't live on the run

Me name is Vic Williams, I was a soldier to the Queen
But I didn't know the half of it when I was in my teens
The enemy ain't the other side wherever they draw the line
The enemy is the ruling class who draw the bloody line

So the insinuation that this is a fault unique to Brown's government would appear disingenuous when coming from the mother of '5th generation' infantry.

 

[ymu]

Indeed. What was piece of essential equipment was he missing that would have saved his life?

That's not entirely clear from the transcript, which I quoted earlier. But here are the relevant bits:

I know of another soldier that sustained the same injuries from an IED that my son sustained and he's alive. All right, limbless, but alive. My son wasn't given that opportunity...

...

JJ: Mr Brown, to this day, I know as fact helping my sons buy equipment themselves before they go to war, I know of every mother, the letters I have received off mothers whose sons have been killed, in Iraq, in Afghanistan, you know, friends of mine that were killed in Northern Ireland.

I know that our Government are letting our troops down, big time.

GB: But I'm sorry I would not send anybody abroad unless I felt that they were properly equipped and, er, what I've told the Army chiefs that we cannot send people abroad unless we can properly equip them.

JJ: But they're not properly equipped and we both know this.

..
.
JJ: No, Mr Brown, Mr Brown, listen to me... I know every injury that my child sustained that day. I know that my son could have survived but my son bled to death. How would you like it if one of your children, God forbid, went to a war doing something that he thought, where he was helping protect his Queen and country and because of lack, LACK of helicopters, lack of equipment your child bled to death and then you had the coroner have to tell you his every injury?

Do you understand Mr Brown? Lack of equipment.

GB: I do understand but I think you, you have got to also understand that I feel very strongly about this as, as you do.

JJ: So where's all the money? You can save a bank. You can put seven whatever into saving a bank. Why not put it into the troops? We all know they are not going to be brought home and I am glad they are there to help.

GB: I'm sorry Miss Janes...

JJ: No, Mr Brown.

GB: I'm sorry, Miss Janes, we have tried to give the troops the equipment they need and I have tried my best...

JJ: And failed...

Sounds like a combination of a lack of body armour and a lack of any means to evacuate him for medical care.

 

[likesfish]

usn marines in helmund have 130 helicopters
we have 8

 

[Ralph Masters]

There are so many versions of bizarre on thi thread, it's hard to keep up. I really believed until now that people were capable of more subtlety of thought than displayed on this thread.

Not just you, Phil.

Blaming individual squaddies for the war is incoherent. Responsibility lies with the politicians who bring about the war, not the soldiers sent to die.

Blaming the grieving mother of a soldier for the war is incoherent. Blame the economic system, the class system that disproportionately enlists working class kids.

Should we blame the class system, the politicians or the global economy or a gang of fundamentalists who have created a hellish society in Afghanistan?

 

[ymu]

So the insinuation that this is a fault unique to Brown's government would appear disingenuous when coming from the mother of '5th generation' infantry.

Where did she say that?

JJ: Many many years ago, in 18-something, somebody said the biggest enemy of our Army was our Treasury... they were so right.

 

[danny la rouge]

Hang on, that's exactly what I said.

I disagree with EVERYONE on this thread. The bit I disagree with you about is that the Sun is doing a good thing (for the wrong reasons).

 

[Beanburger]

That's not entirely clear from the transcript

Indeed.