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The debt the British people owe to Gerry Adams...

littlebabyjesus said:
In the context of NI, during the troubles:

Nationalist = wanted a united Ireland through constitutional means. The Nationalist SDLP advocated a 'middle way', did they not, seeking a role for both the Republic and the UK in governing NI?

Republican = sought a united Ireland through armed struggle.

Unionist = wanted NI to remain part of UK with no role for the Republic in its affairs

Loyalist = fought an armed struggle to keep NI part of the UK


That's how I understand it. Is that wrong?

During the Troubles, the SDLP always gained a larger proportion of the vote than Sinn Fein, suggesting that most NI Catholics favoured their approach to winning civil rights over the IRA's methods. Now, Sinn Fein is the larger party, just as the DUP is larger now than the UUP. But Sinn Fein has now accepted the 'principle of consent' that the SDLP had advocated for many years before the Troubles ended, which effectively guarantees that NI will remain part of the UK for the foreseeable future.

So it seems that Sinn Fein got it wrong, that they eventually had to accept a principle that they had poured scorn on, that the SDLP was the best voice for NI Catholics during the Troubles, and that most NI Catholics thought this too. I'm still a little puzzled as to the nature of this debt that is owed to Gerry Adams. As pointed out above, you could equally demand recognition of a debt to Major or even to Thatcher, yet Thatcher rejected the SDLP's ideas outright. I would argue that she prolonged the Troubles, whatever her role in their eventual end. I think I would argue the same about Gerry Adams.
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Whether Sinn Fein got it wrong or not does not come into it, Gerry Adams is a whore like the majority of other politicians, he took the road that he thought would bring his party the most benefits, principles or morality, right or wrong don't come into it.
 
Deareg said:
Whether Sinn Fein got it wrong or not does not come into it, Gerry Adams is a whore like the majority of other politicians, he took the road that he thought would bring his party the most benefits, principles or morality, right or wrong don't come into it.
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Yes, I substantially agree with that, except that the OP is specifically talking in terms of right an wrong. Whatever the whore-like attributes of Gerry Adams, he failed to recognise what the SDLP had recognised years before as the solution to the Troubles, or at least the start of the solution: namely that there cannot ever be any kind of solution that does not give some say in NI affairs to the Unionists. And the majority of the nationalist community in NI appear to have agreed with that. There does seem to be some revisionist history here to the effect that the IRA had more support than it actually did. If people supported the IRA, why did they not vote for Sinn Fein?

petee said:
spot-on post, littlebabyjesus.
whatever will liamo say when he gets back?
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LiamO seems intent only on getting people to agree with his overblown, moralistic OP. He doesn't appear to be very interested in the reasons people are giving for why they do not endorse it.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Yes, I substantially agree with that, except that the OP is specifically talking in terms of right an wrong. Whatever the whore-like attributes of Gerry Adams, he failed to recognise what the SDLP had recognised years before as the solution to the Troubles, or at least the start of the solution: namely that there cannot ever be any kind of solution that does not give some say in NI affairs to the Unionists. And the majority of the nationalist community in NI appear to have agreed with that. There does seem to be some revisionist history here to the effect that the IRA had more support than it actually did. If people supported the IRA, why did they not vote for Sinn Fein?
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You may find this hard to believe but not everyone who voted sinn fein supported the armed struggle, there are numerous reasons for this, most did I would imagine, but a lot of it was mistrust of the SDLP, anger at the British occupation and the antics of the soldiers and RUC, at the collusion between the state and Loyalist murder gangs, for some it was family loyalty, for instance, if members were active Republicans and probably hundreds more reasons.
 
Ok, well here's a question. Sinn Fein rejected the 1985 Anglo-Irish Agreement, but later came to accept the basic principles underlying it. Would it be fair to say that they were a decade behind the SDLP on this?
 
N_igma said:
SDLP are the party of the middle class catholic. Fucking cunts the lot of them.
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Maybe that is what they are now. But during the Troubles they were comfortably the larger party out of them and Sinn Fein. They must have garnered votes from all sections of the Nationalist community.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Maybe that is what they are now. But during the Troubles they were comfortably the larger party out of them and Sinn Fein. They must have garnered votes from all sections of the Nationalist community.
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Catholics vote on their feet Sinn Féin were never a viable vote until 1997.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Ok, well here's a question. Sinn Fein rejected the 1985 Anglo-Irish Agreement, but later came to accept the basic principles underlying it. Would it be fair to say that they were a decade behind the SDLP on this?
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It is not as simple as that, at that time if sinn fein had accepted the Anglo-Irish agreement there would have been a massive split within the Republican movement, it took years of conditioning and manoeuvring people that he knew he could trust into senior positions while sidelining and isolating those he felt he could not, before Adams could get the Republican movement where he could safely call a cessation of hostilities and start the political process.
 
Deareg said:
It is not as simple as that, at that time if sinn fein had accepted the Anglo-Irish agreement there would have been a massive split within the Republican movement, it took years of conditioning and manoeuvring people that he knew he could trust into senior positions while sidelining and isolating those he felt he could not, before Adams could get the Republican movement where he could safely call a cessation of hostilities and start the political process.
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He's still a sell out though.
 
To move fwd in any peace process or arena of reconciliation, there is always a degree of compromise. There simply has to be, otherwise the cycle continues onto the next generation. When will the die hards realise this?
 
tar1984 said:
Shite attitude.
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Always going to be the way when there's institutionalised segregation. It's alright for you sitting there going shite attitude but when you live here it's a completely different story altogether. You grow up in an area where there's only one religion, you go to school where there's only one religion, your whole life is defined by that. Wind your neck in mate.
 
N_igma said:
Always going to be the way when there's institutionalised segregation. It's alright for you sitting there going shite attitude but when you live here it's a completely different story altogether. You grow up in an area where there's only one religion, you go to school where there's only one religion, your whole life is defined by that. Wind your neck in mate.
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What are you doing to change the status quo, N? Or what would you want to see done to change the endless impasse?
 
N_igma said:
Always going to be the way when there's institutionalised segregation. It's alright for you sitting there going shite attitude but when you live here it's a completely different story altogether. You grow up in an area where there's only one religion, you go to school where there's only one religion, your whole life is defined by that. Wind your neck in mate.
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You seem to be promoting those types of attitude though. As an outsider, the divisions in Ireland don't seem as severe as they were 30 years ago, so why can't it continue to improve?

We have segregated schools here without a fraction of the problems you have in ireland.
 
jer said:
What are you doing to change the status quo, N? Or what would you want to see done to change the endless impasse?
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The national question needs to be resolved first. After that it would obviously be a socialist approach to matters but Ireland needs to be reunited first.
 
tar1984 said:
You seem to be promoting those types of attitude though. As an outsider, the divisions in Ireland don't seem as severe as they were 30 years ago, so why can't it continue to improve?

We have segregated schools here without a fraction of the problems you have in ireland.
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Continue to improve? There's been literally miles more peace walls erected post-ceasefire than before. You really would have to live here to know. Scotland pales in comparison.
 
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