The debt the British people owe to Gerry Adams...

[ViolentPanda]

I would have thought that Grattans Parliament voting for the Act of Union in 1801 was an act of Ireland as a single political unit.

Didn't Ireland labour under much the same electoral issues as England, Wales and Scotland at the time, in that only land-owners held the vote?
Because when that's the case, that's only the elites acting as a "single political unit", and therefore nothing worth mentioning.

 

[krtek a houby]

You see, you actually do prefer the sharp edge of my tongue. Do you wear barbed wire in your underpants as well?

I'm not a religious man but my burden is weighty

 

[LiamO]

but my burden is weighty

That can be problematic. Try having a wank. Works for me.

 

[krtek a houby]

That can be problematic. Try having a wank. Works for me.

There's enough verbal jerking off here already.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Fair or not fair Ireland up to the Act of Union was a single political entity. That body politic the tenants, Catholics, and Dissenters were not included in that decision making is irrelevant. It was a common occurance throughout Europe at the time. The landowning class had a system of governance which allowed for goverment accross the 32 counties.

By your logic, then only the landowning classes comprised the political corpus of Ireland, and your claim that such a position was common across Europe is bilge.
By 1800 all Frenchmen were enfranchised, all Germans (insofar as the males of the tax-paying classes of most of the lande/states that now comprise modern Germany were enfranchised. The same holding true for the Low Countries. As for Spain and Portugal, they were in a state of political and economic flux due to the Peninsular Wars, and Italy didn't exist as a unitary state.
If you'd made your comparison to the UK, it'd have been more apt, and more accurate.

There was no other counter system in place. And by the absence of a counter system we can claim that Ireland was a single political unit.

You can claim whatever the hell you like. The proof of the pudding is in whether you can prove your claim.

Much in the same way we can say that North was a single political unit (no matter how divided the body politic) until direct rule.

Which entirely elides the context in which I originally used the phrase "single political unit". Way to go!!

 

[ViolentPanda]

Why did they reject the claim on the 6 counties, then, do you think?

Realpolitik, obviously.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Interesting breakdown of the victims of the troubles, revealing a few trends. One is that paramilitaries on both sides killed 'their own' in a ratio of about 1:2 – for every two from the 'other' side killed, they would kill one from 'their' side.

Republicans targetted military/police and civilians roughly equally. Loyalists targetted mostly civilians, although it would appear that they killed more of their own than Republicans. British security forces killed roughly half civilians, half Republicans, not touching Loyalists at all.

That shows me a few things.

First that the British army did nothing to protect Catholics from Protestant bullets.

But second, the pattern on both sides of paramilitary is one of authoritarian 'mobster' behaviour, as they were almost as concerned with discipline and loyalty on their side as they were with attacking the other side.

I repeat my earlier question – Was this the best way to fight for civil rights in NI? How successful were the IRA at furthering the interests of ordinary folk on the nationalist side? What alternative tactics could they have used?

 

[LiamO]

I repeat my earlier question – Was this the best way to fight for civil rights in NI? How successful were the IRA at furthering the interests of ordinary folk on the nationalist side? What alternative tactics could they have used?

I would imagine they would claim that peaceful means had been exhausted and that an armed campaign was the best way they could advance their struggle at that time.

 

[DotCommunist]

I'd say that the horrible necessity of internally policing a clandestine paramilitary volunteer force isn't very palatable. As for the wider question- had not the people of NI tried every othe damn route? promises made and broken by a british state divided itself on the issue? To quote a prick, jaw-jaw didn't work.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Or I missed it among your list of petulant whining and avoidance of every one of my posts.



It probably did a one point, but so did many tribes and nations now separated by national borders.

Does a shared mythology from 800 years ago justify a campaign of terror and violence in 1970s 80s and 90s?

Is a better question though.

It's a question that, rationally, you have to answer in the context of my point about shared mythology, though, otherwise any view you take makes all parties to "the struggle" appear to be simply instrumentalist, when reality shows otherwise.
I'd argue that while a shared mythology doesn't justify a "campaign of terror", but it does provide a context and perhaps the seeds of a set of reasons for it. I'd argue that reference to that shared mythology (and indeed the shared language and religion) by those who sought an "Ireland for the Irish", free of the descendants of the Normans and of Cromwell's settlements and their legacy provided a shared vision of what Ireland should be that fed (and still feeds) into the ideas that fuel Irish republicanism, just as post-Plantation myths and a shared language and religion united (and continues to unite) the Loyalists.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

How many of 'their own' did the ANC kill?

I'd say that the numbers of their own that both sides killed is a reflection of the nature of the two groups. Bullies who considered that they had legitimate authority.

To me, the interesting question isn't what 'debt' the British owe to Gerry Adams. It's what debt, if any, nationalists owe to him.

 

[Deareg]

It went beyond the fight for civil rights when the police joined forces with loyalist mobs time and time again to attack both catholic areas and civil rights marchers, once the catholics started organising themselves to defend there own areas and the IRA started to re-organise and recruit again violence became inevitable, once the violence started it quickly became a fight for unification. Anyone who thinks that the civil rights movement was making progress has a very strange idea of what progress means, is a liar or most likely know fuckall about what actually happened in that period.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Was a fight for civil rights coopted by those who sought unification, then?

 

[Deareg]

Was a fight for civil rights coopted by those who sought unification, then?

Not sure what you mean by coopted, but Republicans had next to nothing to do with the civil rights movement and had next to no influence in catholic areas at the start of the troubles.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Well, he would say that, wouldn't he?

Shut it, Mandy!

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Not sure what you mean by coopted, but Republicans had next to nothing to do with the civil rights movement and had next to no influence in catholic areas at the start of the troubles.

I'm asking whether the legitimate grievances of Catholics at the start of the troubles were used by those wishing to push a very particular political agenda, who successfully managed to turn a fight for civil rights into a fight for unification.

 

[ViolentPanda]

How do you accidental blow up not one but two pubs?

He said "fuck up", not "accident", tbf.
It's a reasonable interpretation too, in context with other PIRA actions in England at the time, which were heavily weighted toward inflicting military casualties, whether on duty or off duty, hence the coach bombs and some of the other pub bombs having caused squaddie casualties.

 

[ViolentPanda]

What are you saying? That they killed in order to stop the killing? Sounds suspiciously like the old Soviet line about 'fighting for peace'.

It's not as if "killing to stop the killing" isn't an extremely old military (and paramilitary) doctrine, though, which is why people like Gow were turned into toasties.

 

[LiamO]

Or you could ask whether northern catholics decided their grievances would never be addressed, that their most basic 'grievance' was being co-opted aginst their wishes into an Orange State.

Given the IRA comprised of a few dozen avtivists in the late 60's, where did they come from if not the mass of the catholic/nationalist population?

 

[Deareg]

I'm asking whether the legitimate grievances of Catholics at the start of the troubles were used by those wishing to push a very particular political agenda, who successfully managed to turn a fight for civil rights into a fight for unification.

I have no doubt that they did, though in the beginning it was simply a case of catholics organising to defend themselves from being killed and having there homes burned to the ground, I would say that most of the people involved in this defence ended up joining the provos so it would have been difficult not to use the civil rights issue. By the way it was no just discrimination that catholics suffered but outright terror and oppression

 

[LiamO]

What are you saying? That they killed in order to stop the killing? Sounds suspiciously like the old Soviet line about 'fighting for peace'.

missed this.

Hiroshima? Nagasaki? Dresden? 'Killing to stop the killing'? Or mass murder?

 

[ViolentPanda]

missed this.

Hiroshima? Nagasaki? Dresden? 'Killing to stop the killing'? Or mass murder?

Both.
It's the tail-side to a coin whose head-side is targeted assassination.

 

[Streathamite]

Does it? Honestly? I'm sure I could argue that your position is disingenuous too.

well, go on, do so,then...

IMO you could legitimately put the case that these actions were reckless; you might say they were calculated and callous; and even that they might inevitably lead to loss of life...

but surely it cannot, realistically, be argued that they were anything other than a massive economic strike against the british government.

Agreed, but to me, the differences between your 3 adjectives and 'deliberate' is so minor as to be trivial/cosmetic/semantics: especially to the bereaved and survivors
I fully accept that PIRA were rational,strategic people, rather than psychopaths, but their indifference to loss of life is still horrifying

No doubt someone will be along to post up the 'Gentlemen Bombers' video in due course

Eh?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Maybe nobody owes Gerry Adams jack shit. Maybe he used the Troubles to push his agenda for the unification of Ireland and in the process led Catholics in NI on a quarter-century march down a blind alley.

 

[likesfish]

thing was the armed struggle had been contained by the middle of the 7O's.
all that happened for the next 25 years were more causalties.
A communist friend of mine reckoned the whole plan was naive romantic bollocks form the start. We are going to drive the britsh into the sea.
ok that won't work we will make it too painful for them to stay that did'nt work either.
best that could be said was the provos never tried to really ramp up the violence either because they knew it was futile. more violence would not achieve any more pressure.
or b cause enough mayhem and internment and shoot to kill come back and or cross border raids they find themselves in a real shooting war which the provos could never win.

 

[8den]

missed this.

Hiroshima? Nagasaki? Dresden? 'Killing to stop the killing'? Or mass murder?

more whataboutery from the poster who claims he's above that sort of thing.

 

[LiamO]

more whataboutery from the poster who claims he's above that sort of thing.

Yawn.

Yous 8 Dens are a busted flush. Bored with you now. Toodle pip and i hope life brings you all some peace and happiness soon.

 

[8den]

Yawn.

Yous 8 Dens are a busted flush. Bored with you now. Toodle pip and i hope life brings you all some peace and happiness soon.

Yes me and my pesky facts must be oh so tiresome.

 

[LiamO]

may (the) god(s) bless you and save you, my troubled children

 

[LiamO]

Maybe nobody owes Gerry Adams jack shit. Maybe he used the Troubles to push his agenda for the unification of Ireland and in the process led Catholics in NI on a quarter-century march down a blind alley.

That's an interesting dynamic you have there lbj...

Emotional response, followed by fluctuation between rational debate and emotional response with rationality seeemingly in the ascendancy - then a late, mad dash back to the 'certainty' of emotional response.

What's all that about, d'you reckon.