The debt the British people owe to Gerry Adams...

[LiamO]

8dens, like I said all you have done is posted exceptions that prove the rule.

I discussed this with the man who was shot 17(?) times and survived Kingsmill. A very quietly spoken and civil man he was too. Whilst he could never justify it or condone it either - he accepted that it had to be viewed in the wider context of the pub bombings in Dundalk, Crossmaglen, Monaghan, and Silverbridge and the murder of the Reavey brothers by the Glenane gang. he also agreed that Kingsmill was a watershed and that the killing stopped because of it, straight after it.

I was part of a similar conversation with Unionist Politician (and ex-UDR officer) Will Glendinning (who comes from Glenane) a few months ago too. Although he was (rightly) abhorred by what happened, he did not disagree with the analysis offered or the direct links to the activities of the loyalist/british army gang from his home village.

So a survivor and an ex-british army officer from Glenane... but sure what would they know? The 8 Dens know best.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

'exception that proves the rule' is a meaningless phrase.

 

[LiamO]

Why is it meaningless? The preceding posts provide both meaning and context.

But the fact that we could probably sit and name 90% of the bombings which resulted in civilian fatalities over a 25 year campaign surely proves the point - that civilian fatalities were the result of fuck-ups rather than policy.

 

[8den]

8dens, like I said all you have done is posted exceptions that prove the rule.

I'm sorry so firstly according the Birmingham bombings were two mistakes, now they're exceptions that prove the rule.

Exceptions that left 31 people dead.

I discussed this with the man who was shot 17(?) times and survived Kingsmill. A very quietly spoken and civil man he was too. Whilst he could never justify it or condone it either - he accepted that it had to be viewed in the wider context of the pub bombings in Dundalk, Crossmaglen, Monaghan, and Silverbridge and the murder of the Reavey brothers by the Glenane gang. he also agreed that Kingsmill was a watershed and that the killing stopped because of it, straight after it.

I was part of a similar conversation with Unionist Politician (and ex-UDR officer) Will Glendinning (who comes from Glenane) a few months ago too. Although he was (rightly) abhorred by what happened, he did not disagree with the analysis offered or the direct links to the activities of the loyalist/british army gang from his home village.


So a survivor and an ex-british army officer from Glenane... but sure what would they know? The 8 Dens know best.

Well isn't that marvellous you had a conversation with Alan Black and Will Glendinning, that completely validates your point of view.

oh and you accuse me of being mentally ill in the same breath.

Well if you say you had conversations with Will and Alan, along with Gerry Adams, and George Best, of course you did LiamO

would you like some more thorazine, with your tea?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

First, define 'civilian'. There were plenty of killings on both sides of those identified for various reasons as being worthy of being killed, and a fair few others taken out along the way.

I also disagree with the idea that civilian fatalities were 'fuck ups'. They were possibly unintended, but when you plant a bomb in a building, you always run a high risk of killing people. It's disingenuous to pretend otherwise.

 

[grit]

.

edit: fuck it this thread has descended into such a bun fight at this stage its not worth it.

 

[8den]

I'd imagine because you dont attempt the same style of trolling in the pub as you would on urban maybe?

QFT.

 

[Jon-of-arc]

Just for reference, why do you deem the lives of british civilians to be more important than the lives of Irish ones (unionist or nationalist). That is how your post reads to me. If this is not your intention feel free to clarify.

I deem the blowing up of british civilians to be of more relevance to my life than the deaths of Irish civilians. I don't have any strong beliefs either way about the Ulster question - I feel it very sad that a bunch of people went about killing one another over the choice to be ruled by one group of cunts or another group of cunts, but it isn't really my place to comment on the rights and wrongs of their argument. And surely that's fair enough? Isn't that what a republican would say, that it's none of my business?

Regards the actions of the British military, I think I've clarified my position (that any civilian deaths caused in NI by them were "dispicable"...). But when I become the oppressed myself, then surely i'm allowed the option of taking things a bit more personally?

 

[Jon-of-arc]

No. That is not what the OP says. If you doubt me read it again. maybe that is what your gut reaction tells you it says.

What the Op says is that for the first time in the last/present campaign, those who had come to the conclusion that armed struggle would not deliver the stated goal (a United Ireland) and a new direction/strategy was needed actually brought the rest of the movement with them. None of the other protaganists seemed capable of such a paradigm shift. THAT is why the british public should be grateful to Gerry Adams - because without him and his allies the IRA would no doubt still be conducting an armed campaign.

We should be grateful to him (although you're not asking us to thank him...) and this gem from the OP

you should have the grace to acknowledge

sounds like the equivalent of being told to "thank" someone, for what is a "thank you" if not a graceful acknowledgement?

Oh yeah, and the thread title.

I'm not concerned with the why's and the what's of the reasons for Adams negotiating (or helping to, rather, as it really does take 2 to tango...) a peace treaty. I'm just saying I shan't be grateful to him for it, and it is fucking ridiculous for you to suggest I should be. How grateful are you to the Brit government for the concessions they made during the negotiations?

 

[LiamO]

But when I become the oppressed myself, then surely i'm allowed the option of taking things a bit more personally?

Not sure I'd agree with this last bit, but can understand where you are coming from in the rest of the post. Thank you for clarifying.

 

[LiamO]

sounds like the equivalent of being told to "thank" someone, for what is a "thank you" if not a graceful acknowledgement?

Oh yeah, and the thread title.

I'm not concerned with the why's and the what's of the reasons for Adams negotiating (or helping to, rather, as it really does take 2 to tango...) a peace treaty. I'm just saying I shan't be grateful to him for it, and it is fucking ridiculous for you to suggest I should be. How grateful are you to the Brit government for the concessions they made during the negotiations?

Of course you can 'have the grace' to acknowledge someone's positive input without saying 'thank you'. People do it every day with people they are in dispute with.

I did not say you should be grateful to Adams et al because they negotiated. I said, quite specifically, that the british people should be grateful to him (and his colleagues) because of their willingness and ability to shift the republican movement from it's entranched position, - which made negotiation and peace possible.

And I'm not one bit sorry some people found the OP provocative. Despite the 8 dens trolling, there has been some valuable discussion on this thread - as has been acknowledged by a number of posters.

Whilst I admit it was deliberately provocative title, it is illuminating how it provoked some people to thought (to analyse, to revisit, to question), it provoked others to purely emotive responses. Gut reaction is strong stuff isn't it? Even after so many years. Most of the vitriol posted here is just more examples of the kind of circular argument/entrenched, black & white thinking that somebody had to breakthrough. Witout this paradigm shift we would still be locked in the 'long war'.

I have to say I find it puzzling when it's somehow OK to demand Paisley, Robinson or Trimble to have to come to terms with working with and alongside their former enemies but not OK to suggest posters on this board should similarly get past their emotive responses.

 

[Jon-of-arc]

How about I acknowledge Adams positive impact, but do so gracelessly?

 

[LiamO]

daddy was a soldier liam. ma was a military cook. However much I try to divorce myself from the tradition of 'brits win' I always come back to it. I do have the good grace to admit that the british empire was a fucking disgrace to all right thinking people. Bastards, our bastards, my bastards. y'see? Isn't pretty.

Howya DC

Pretty? No. Three-dimensional and refreshingly honest? Yes.

It's never easy when you begin to question your own side - and it's natural to occasionally 'run for cover' and cling to the old 'certainties' - but the fact that you are willing to question in the first place is what's important. Obviously I speak as a fellow-struggler, with a considerable distance to go myself.

 

[LiamO]

How about I acknowledge Adams positive impact, but do so gracelessly?

If that form of words allowed you to move forward, without transgressing your values and beliefs, then that would certainly represent progress - but I can't help thinking that many people would legitimately describe such an act as being, in and of itself, 'gracious'.

 

[Streathamite]

This will probably open up another round of self-righteous foot-stomping from some but...

on what evidence do you claim the IRA deliberately targetted civilian fatalities in it's bombing campaign in England? (or at home for that matter)? I say england because they never planted any in scotland or wales.

Baltic Exchange? Bishopsgate?

 

[LiamO]

Baltic Exchange? Bishopsgate?

I have not claimed, nor would I, that civilian deaths did not occur as aresult of IRA actions . Plainly that would be a nonsense.

But the sheer scale of the two bombings you mention surely only underlines how successful they were in maximising economic damage and minimising civilian ones. How many people worked within the areas devatated by these two attacks? How many died?

 

[Streathamite]

I have not claimed, nor would I, that civilian deaths did not occur as aresult of IRA actions . Plainly that would be a nonsense.

But the sheer scale of the two bombings you mention surely only underlines how successful they were in maximising economic damage and minimising civilian ones. How many people worked within the areas devatated by these two attacks? How many died?

Four in total, granted, but that is still targetting civilians. You plant bombs to kill people, not to wipe their hard disk
e2a:tbh, the argument that that wasn't their primary aim strikes me as a tad disingenuous, pace LBJ

 

[Garek]

You plant bombs to kill people, not to wipe their hard disk

Really? Those two bombings seemed intent on causing massive economic damage, rather than civilian fatalities.

 

[Deareg]

Reading through this thread anyone would think that it was the IRA that were responsible for starting the conflict and only the IRA that killed civilians.

 

[Streathamite]

Really? Those two bombings seemed intent on causing massive economic damage, rather than civilian fatalities.

hence my e2a'ed 2nd point

 

[Garek]

hence my e2a'ed 2nd point

Ah, noted.

 

[krtek a houby]

You grew up in Ireland. You are a radio DJ. and you have never heard Tooooooo-neeeeee Fenton?

I do not find that in the least pausible.

I'm Irish, I worked in radio, yes but the name escapes me. You seem to be more into him, so you are.

Anyways, that was a dozen years ago now, and the Harry Enfield stuff is decades old. Should I compare you to Ruth Dudley Edwards because you write opinionated stuff about Ireland, eh?

I'm not thanking Gerry for anything but I do understand the part he played in the peace process.

 

[LiamO]

.

 

[LiamO]

I'm not thanking Gerry for anything but I do understand the part he played in the peace process.

And if that is, currently, how far you can go - whilst staying congruent with your own values and beliefs - then I can fully repect that. Thank uyou for your contribution.

 

[krtek a houby]

And if that is, currently, how far you can go - whilst staying congruent with your own values and beliefs - then I can fully repect that. Thank uyou for your contribution.

Ah, butter wouldn't melt. Does it irk you that not all Irish people think exactly like you do? SF have come a long way over the last decade and a half; there was no choice but to move on in more democratic fashion. I am thankful that Gerry and his counterparts saw sense to put the bad old times behind them; let's put it that way.

 

[LiamO]

Four in total, granted, but that is still targetting civilians. You plant bombs to kill people, not to wipe their hard disk
e2a:tbh, the argument that that wasn't their primary aim strikes me as a tad disingenuous, pace LBJ

Does it? Honestly? I'm sure I could argue that your position is disingenuous too.

IMO you could legitimately put the case that these actions were reckless; you might say they were calculated and callous; and even that they might inevitably lead to loss of life...

but surely it cannot, realistically, be argued that they were anything other than a massive economic strike against the british government.

No doubt someone will be along to post up the 'Gentlemen Bombers' video in due course.

 

[LiamO]

Ah, butter wouldn't melt. Does it irk you that not all Irish people think exactly like you do?

You know Jer, you do make me smile at times. You complain about me being disrespectful and yet when I make a perfectly respectful, conciliatory even, post... it seems to annoy you even more.

A man could be forgiven for thinking you actually enjoy the abuse and have some kind of secondary gain issue going on. Have a pleasant day.

 

[krtek a houby]

You know Jer, you do make me smile at times. You complain about me being disrespectful and yet when I make a perfectly respectful, conciliatory even, post... it seems to annoy you even more.

A man could be forgiven for thinking you actually enjoy the abuse and have some kind of secondary gain issue going on. Have a pleasant day.

It's difficult to tell when man with forked tongue is being genuine. Have an insightful day yourself.

 

[LiamO]

It's difficult to tell when man with forked tongue is being genuine. Have an insightful day yourself.

You see, you actually do prefer the sharp edge of my tongue. Do you wear barbed wire in your underpants as well?

 

[LiamO]

Have an insightful day yourself.

Sorry, Jer old chap .... quite forgot my manners.... thank you