The debt the British people owe to Gerry Adams...

[LiamO]

How patronising. Still, my point proven yet again. I have no idea who your Tony Fenton is, so your attempts at humour are lost on me and anyone else who can be bothered to read your barmy, smug apologism.

You grew up in Ireland. You are a radio DJ. and you have never heard Tooooooo-neeeeee Fenton?

I do not find that in the least pausible.

 

[LiamO]

No it does not justify it going on for so long, it was a just cause to begin with, though it went on for far too long in my opinion and lots of the tactics that were used and many of the things that happened on all sides were indeed a disgrace and brought shame on all involved, but that is the thing with this type of violence, once it has started it quickly gets out of hand and after it starts to pass down to other generations it takes on it's own momentum and stopping it is almost impossible as has been showed not only in Ireland but in many other places around the world

Which brings us nicely back to the OP.

Every side had painted themselves into a corner. Somebody had to break the mold/make the paradigm shift.

THAT (whether you or I or Jer or the 8dens like it or not) would be the Republicans, led by Gerry Adams.

 

[flypanam]

Nobody gives a shit about a united Ireland, here or back home. The only struggle at the moment is keeping a roof over your head.

And what an insult to people to try and sell them the idea that they should be thankful that there's no more bombs going off.

Actually you are well wide of the mark here Jer i'm afraid. There is always the 'common sense' arguement that people can only deal with the here and now, this case been the economic balls up at home. That they can only worry about their job, food on the table etc. It economism and reductionist. I'm sure that plenty of people in Ireland worry about all those things and cheer whats going on in Egypt. People at home would like a united Ireland . Sure they are not activly marching for it now, but they have it as an aspiration. Like all good ideas it will come and go, rouse people or not, until it becomes a reality. A lot like our old friend class struggle.

I think after reading your comments jer, that it's you who fails to see a united Ireland, it is you who is a product like certain sections of opinion writers around the Irish Times that we are all post nationalist now. It is you who probably thinks Irish Labour are the best party around at the GE. But there are plenty of others who would ascribe to a united Ireland, plenty who don't believe we live in a post nationalistic world, plenty of people who think that the the 1916 proclaimation is an ideal that has yet to be realised. They might be dreamers, but at least they are not jaded. Vinny Brown wrote about the realists today in the Irish Times. I bet thousands of people looked to heaven and said 'Thank fuck i'm not one of them'

 

[DotCommunist]

to the best of my knowledge there has never been one.

that, that right there, is a fucking disgrace. You are telling me the bully boys in camo and the piping beggorah cuchalain fought fer us brigade never got around to actually polling the vote of NI residents? Thats just fucked up.

 

[AKA pseudonym]

Nobody gives a shit about a united Ireland, here or back home. The only struggle at the moment is keeping a roof over your head.

And what an insult to people to try and sell them the idea that they should be thankful that there's no more bombs going off.

what bollix.. as a born n bred resident of the occupied 6 counties I can assure you, plenty of people want a United Ireland...
And btw: the bombs still go off...

 

[N_igma]

Has anyone said up the ra yet? No....UP DA RA!

 

[Deareg]

Has anyone said up the ra yet? No....UP DA RA!

Which one?

 

[N_igma]

Which one?

Whatever one tickles your fancy mate I'm only taking the piss.

 

[Deareg]

Whatever one tickles your fancy mate I'm only taking the piss.

I know that, you should have said all of them.

 

[N_igma]

I know that, you should have said all of them.

Yeh I know this thread is a perfect example of how this whole situation is a long way away from resolving itself. What I find surprising though is that someone like Jer thinks most people in Ireland don't want a United Ireland. I'm coming around to the notion his name is Sammy Wilkinson from the Shankill Road.

 

[petee]

cathal goulding (and his cohort) came to view the armed strategy as being a zero sum, no-win situation. they - and goulding in particular - stayed, developed a new strategy and eventually brought the republican movement with them. this broke the deadlock and introduced new thinking.

they did this at considerable personal risk. that they pulled this off without getting shot by their own still amazes me, as does the fact that there was no large-scale feud.

just sayin' like.

 

[N_igma]

cathal goulding (and his cohort) came to view the armed strategy as being a zero sum, no-win situation. they - and goulding in particular - stayed, developed a new strategy and eventually brought the republican movement with them. this broke the deadlock and introduced new thinking.

they did this at considerable personal risk. that they pulled this off without getting shot by their own still amazes me, as does the fact that there was no large-scale feud.

just sayin' like.

Sell outs.

E2A: They didn't get shot by their own? Ever heard of the INLA?

 

[DotCommunist]

Has anyone said up the ra yet? No....UP DA RA!

if somebody had decided to let our SAS off the lead the irish republican armies in all their complexity and planning would have been totally fucking destroyed. The very nature of the counter-insurgency roles beloved by the state assassins shows this. But the days when you could do that without fallout amongst mainland moaners is long gone. These days the corpses photos would have people up in arms about how beastly we are to the irish cousins.

 

[LiamO]

cathal goulding (and his cohort) came to view the armed strategy as being a zero sum, no-win situation. they - and goulding in particular - stayed, developed a new strategy and eventually brought the republican movement with them. this broke the deadlock and introduced new thinking.

they did this at considerable personal risk. that they pulled this off without getting shot by their own still amazes me, as does the fact that there was no large-scale feud.

just sayin' like.

But they didn't though, did they? They just jumped and expected people to follow their top-down lead. But they didn't. There WAS a whole series of internecine feuds and they DID NOT bring the republican movement/community with them, did they?

That is why what the current leadership have achieved is remarkable. It does not matter whether I, or you or anybody else was in favour of or against it. It does not matter what Jer or likesfish or the 8dens throw up about Gerry Adams' history.

The fact that Adams et al successfully moved the RM (and particularly the IRA) from where they were to where they are now, without a massive feud, is historically unprecedented. I know ex-combatants who hate Adams with a passion because of this, but even they will readily concede that it was some move to pull off with very few casualties.

Come on now Petee, you mischievous man. You'll be giving us the old 'The GFA is Sunningdale for slow learners' beloved of the sdlp and southern media next.

 

[LiamO]

for some clarification purpoeses, does anyone have the last polled vote on unification taken among the people of norn? I'd like to see it. My suspicion is that most vote united out of a 'ffs, enough' principle and the days of the die-hard Unionists are long passed..

Could you flesh this out a little Dotty?

 

[N_igma]

Afaik the last poll vote for unification was boycotted by the nationalist community.

 

[petee]

the fact that goulding et al successfully moved the RM (and particularly the IRA) from where they were to where they are now, without a massive feud, is historically unprecedented. i know ex-combatants who hate goulding with a passion because of this, but even they will readily concede that it was some move to pull off with very few casualties.

fixed
"we were right too soon, adams was right too late, and rory o'brady will never be fuckin right"
- not goulding, but y'know

 

[Deareg]

if somebody had decided to let our SAS off the lead the irish republican armies in all their complexity and planning would have been totally fucking destroyed. The very nature of the counter-insurgency roles beloved by the state assassins shows this. But the days when you could do that without fallout amongst mainland moaners is long gone. These days the corpses photos would have people up in arms about how beastly we are to the irish cousins.

That is bollox, because while short term in would have brought results long term it would have just spawned a new generation who would have been a lot more organised and secretive and introduced a new phase of tactics probably more along the lines of the R.A.F in Germany of selective assassinations of politicians and industrialist, and even more links and cooperation with other militant radical organisations around the world. Believe it or not as bad as things were both sides held back from what could have been a lot more brutal and vicious conflict.

 

[LiamO]

fixed
"we were right too soon, adams was right too late, and rory o'brady will never be fuckin right"
- not goulding, but y'know

Sorry I had you down for the sdlp mantra next, not the Sticky one)

btw how have the sdlp and the Workers Party done in convincing the electorate that their analysis was right all along?

Again, it's a an attractive soundbite (whether it is said by a Stick,, a disgruntled ex-provie or a revisionist) but it simply does not hold water IMO. Here's why...

From the OP...

There are many thousands of republican ex-prisoners and activists. Over the years the majority of these, for various political and/or personal reasons, walked away, perhaps disillusioned.

Gerry Adams (and his cohort) also came to view the armed strategy as being a zero sum, no-win situation. The difference is that they - and Adams in particular - stayed, developed a new strategy and eventually brought the Republican movement with them. This broke the deadlock and introduced new thinking.

The difference is Adams & Co did not jump. They stayed and brought their people (and the wider nationalist community) with them.

You could just as easily argue - and it contains an equal measure of logic - that the failure of the Sticks to stay and fight their corner (til they could bring the movement with them) prolonged the armed campaign by 20-odd years.

 

[LiamO]

fixed
"we were right too soon, adams was right too late, and rory o'brady will never be fuckin right"
- not goulding, but y'know

I wish people wouldn't do that 'fixed for you' shite.

I see it from some of the biggest cunts on here all the time on here - and if left unchecked it can spread to good posters like yourself

 

[LiamO]

if somebody had decided to let our SAS off the lead the irish republican armies in all their complexity and planning would have been totally fucking destroyed. The very nature of the counter-insurgency roles beloved by the state assassins shows this. But the days when you could do that without fallout amongst mainland moaners is long gone. These days the corpses photos would have people up in arms about how beastly we are to the irish cousins.

So hundreds of years of trying to impose a military solution on a political problem has worked out so well hasn't it? And the hardball the Israelis have played with those pesky arabs has been so productive too.

What's the craic DC? These last two posts are far from your usual insightful contributions.

 

[Lock&Light]

I wish people wouldn't do that 'fixed for you' shite.

I see it from some of the biggest cunts on here all the time on here - and if left unchecked it can spread to good posters like yourself

I've agreed with much of what you've said on this thread, but nothing more so than with that.

 

[DotCommunist]

So hundreds of years of trying to impose a military solution on a political problem has worked out so well hasn't it? And the hardball the Israelis have played with those pesky arabs has been so productive too.

What's the craic DC? These last two posts are far from your usual insightful contributions.

daddy was a soldier liam. ma was a military cook. However much I try to divorce myself from the tradition of 'brits win' I always come back to it. I do have the good grace to admit that the british empire was a fucking disgrace to all right thinking people. Bastards, our bastards, my bastards. y'see? Isn't pretty.

I'm not saying it would be right, but if the SAS had gone in gloves off the situation would have been resolved quicker, bloodier and, well not rerally sorted cos those corpses have sons.

 

[AKA pseudonym]

daddy was a soldier liam. ma was a military cook. However much I try to divorce myself from the tradition of 'brits win' I always come back to it. I do have the good grace to admit that the british empire was a fucking disgrace to all right thinking people. Bastards, our bastards, my bastards. y'see? Isn't pretty.

I'm not saying it would be right, but if the SAS had gone in gloves off the situation would have been resolved quicker, bloodier and, well not rerally sorted cos those corpses have sons.

They did in the early 80s.. 'Shoot to Kill' ring any bells?
Prob as the Brits learned the more you whack, more republicans pop up into their place...
Weird how some SAS casualties ended up in car crashes in Germany..

 

[DotCommunist]

if the british state had really operated a shoot to kill policy it wouldn't be carrying a table leg that saw you slotted. It'd have been looking in the wrong direction, sniffing in a discourteous manner or perhaps insolently picking your nose. They've done peoples in before, and if NI wasn't a backdoor shame to us we would have crushed irish resistance under the cover of ww2

 

[AKA pseudonym]

They didnt have to during WW2... Dev did their work for them through internment....

 

[Jon-of-arc]

and you insist with the ridiculous notion of trying too seperate the IRA's armed campaign from the actions of the british and stormont governments which precipitated it.

Is it all on Wiki that in this campaign the first bomb ing was by loyalists? The first civilian was killed were by... loyalists, the first policeman was killed by.... loyalists and the first british soldier was killed by.... oh yeah.... loyalists. Still all the IRA's fault though, obviously. Maybe Gerry Adams was running the loyalists as well?

Fortunately, some people had the nous and the bottle to break the cycle.

No, I dont try and seperate the IRAs actions from anyone elses. Where on earth have I done that? oh, I haven't

I personally believe that the actions of IRA in NI against British military targets, and perhaps even against mainland military targets, were probably justified. What's that thing about the losers of a war being "terrorists" and the winners being "freedom fighters"?

Regards NI based fighting between republicans and loyalists, well, that aint really my place to comment on. From what I can work out, both sides had legit grievances. I'd have preferred it if they hadn't resorted to killing one another, but I really can't take a side as to who was right and who was wrong. I don't have strong enough beliefs about NI to take a stand seeing as, as a mainland citizen, it is none of my business.

Regards loyalist paramilitary action against mainland forces, same as for the IRA - what's the difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter, except winning?

Regards the UK military - some of their actions were despicable and they knew what they were getting into when they got involved. They became a legit target, and I have little sympathy, except for those that signed up, died/got injured, simply due to being working class and falling for recruiters propaganda.

My beef with Gerry Adams is due to mainland attacks against civilian targets. What reason should I, as a mainland civilian, have to thank Gerry Adams, except for stopping attacks on mainland targets? For the reasons outlined in previous posts, I don't feel the need to thank anyone who is oppressing me for stopping said oppression.

When he became involved with bombings against mainland citizens, he became directly involved in terrorism (not "terrorism", as mentioned before). It's a dispicable tactic from anyone, regardless of the circumstances. Civilians, the innocent loved ones of you and your comrades in arms, have been killed on your home turf, so now you want to do the same to the homeland of the forces occupying your country? Ever heard the phrase "be the bigger man"? I could never respect in any way the IRA for this. They used human life (innocent human life) as a bargaining tool. Sick.

Surely that seems fair enough?

 

[DotCommunist]

Afaik the last poll vote for unification was boycotted by the nationalist community.

. misread

 

[petee]

Sorry I had you down for the sdlp mantra next, not the Sticky one)

i'd be giving neither.
but i'd be hard pressed to come up with many areas in which there's a very substantial difference with what the WP have sold since the 80s and what SF have sold since the 90s. abandonment of abstentionism, abandonment of the gun, a statist economy (of different degrees of intervention): that garland quote is right. the WP, a democratic-centralist and third-worldist organization for which i have little sympathy, tried to practice a laudable anti-sectarian politics, if only SF had followed.

in the south, of course, we know which party has had the more influence.

the failure of the Sticks to stay and fight their corner (til they could bring the movement with them)

people aren't robots, you can't force them to think things. they fought their corner for many years. you could as well call the pinnies splitters, who btw failed to bring the movement with them, as shown by the existence of the WP, RSF, 32CSM.

 

[DotCommunist]

That is bollox, because while short term in would have brought results long term it would have just spawned a new generation who would have been a lot more organised and secretive and introduced a new phase of tactics probably more along the lines of the R.A.F in Germany of selective assassinations of politicians and industrialist, and even more links and cooperation with other militant radical organisations around the world. Believe it or not as bad as things were both sides held back from what could have been a lot more brutal and vicious conflict.

You mean that actually might have succesfully offed the whole tory cabinet? god pray for the day when they thought to have a few gunmen outside the emergency exit points..