The big Brexit thread - news, updates and discussion

[brogdale]

Which socialists aligned with nationalist (I presume you national populist) interests? The RCG and Galloway? OK but those wankers left socialist politics behind them a long time ago. The majority of socialists that argued against the EU did so based on socialism, on class conflict.

It is pretty simple neither liberal technocracy nor national populism but socialism. If one is so scared of the latter that you flee into the arms of the former ok but then be honest about what your politics now are.

Arguably any 'Lexit' supporter was aligning themselves with the interests of the 'nationalist/populists' intent on promoting their own free-trade fundamentalist position. Obviously they were doing so with the Streeck-like objective of effecting that stumbling block to the descent into the single market state devoid of democracy, but whether it's comfortable or not, alignment with the desired outcome of the Tory factional project, there was.

I may be wrong, but it always seemed to me that the 'Lexit' project was reactionary (in the literal sense) to the Tory instigated referendum gambit and that before Cameron's 2013 announcement, withdrawal from the supra state had been a largely dormant/niche interest on the left.

 

[redsquirrel]

I’m not signing up for anything. I’m sure most German socialists in the 1930’s would have rather lived under the Weimar Republic than under the Nazis. Most sensible people from most political persuasions would rather live in a liberal democracy than under left or right wing dictatorships. That’s just being realistic.

If you are going to take political actions to support that liberal democracy, rather than political actions that advance the class conflict then you are siding with liberalism. Being a socialist is not about what sort of ideal you want but the actions you are taking at the current time.

Germany is actually an excellent example - your position implies that German communists should have stopped any class conflict and thrown their support behind the Weimar Republic that was killing them.

Arguably any 'Lexit' supporter was aligning themselves with the interests of the 'nationalist/populists' intent on promoting their own free-trade fundamentalist position.

Any any 'remain' supporter was aligning themselves with liberal technocracy? The only 'correct' position was to stand above it all?

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Germany is actually an excellent example - your position implies that German communists should have stopped any class conflict and thrown their support behind the Weimar Republic that was killing them.

The German communist party in the 1930’s was a foreign arm of the Soviet government, no more, no less. Without any doubt life was better under the Weimar Republic than it would have been, and was, under the Nazis.
I know it’s an unfair comparison with Brexit, but I’m just making the point that sometimes it’s better to have the devil you know, if only for a little while.

 

[maomao]

It is pretty simple neither liberal technocracy nor national populism but socialism.

How's that going for you?

I know plenty of socialists who believe the UK working classes would be better off in the EU than under a Tory government in an independent UK. It's not an unreasonable position. And I know plenty of working class people, including EU nationals who are shitting their pants about what happens at the end of the year. What comfort does your position offer them?

 

[ska invita]

I guess boosting right wing nationalism is one way to advance class conflict
my favourite bit of advancing the class conflict was having (We Voted Leave Now) Leave shouted at me and my partner

 

[Raheem]

If you are going to take political actions to support that liberal democracy, rather than political actions that advance the class conflict then you are siding with liberalism.

What I have trouble understanding it how the bolded part can be related to Brexit. I can see it various superficial senses ("this will annoy lots of middle-class Londoners"; "let's send Brussels a message" etc), and maybe that was enough for some people. But it has always seemed obvious to me that Brexit without planning (a given in the actual case) would, inevitably for practical purposes, result in a project of deregulation and redistribution of wealth to the wealthy, as well as a drop in economic demand for labour, austerity and a rise in English nationalism. I find it hard to see what alternative vision people might have legitimately had. Even if there is an answer to that, it would surely have to depend on the intervention of a series of unlikely random events.

 

[redsquirrel]

The German communist party in the 1930’s was a foreign arm of the Soviet government, no more, no less. Without any doubt life was better under the Weimar Republic than it would have been, and was, under the Nazis.

Sure, but that does not answer the question are you arguing that communists (also note small c) should have thrown out class conflict for backing a state that was attacking them?

I know it’s an unfair comparison with Brexit, but I’m just making the point that sometimes it’s better to have the devil you know, if only for a little while.

And you see this positions as socialist/communist/anarchist? It's the line taken by liberals every time - don't elect Corbyn he won't win, vote for Biden/Clinton/Blair, don't strike now you risk XYZ. As I said if you going to argue this position ok but look at where it is taking you.

I know plenty of socialists who believe the UK working classes would be better off in the EU than under a Tory government in an independent UK. Its not an unreasonable position. And I know plenty of working class people, including EU nationals who are shitting their pants about what happens at the end of the year. What comfort does your position offer them?

Some people felt New Labour would be better than the Tories in '97, some people felt that Labour austerity would be better than Tory austerity, some people are argue for the LP to move to the right to get into power. What's hugely depressing is seeing people that were opposed to Blair now following the exact same logic that lead to New Labour in their defence of Starmer.

If the fear of populism (of any variety) is driving people who once practised class politics into liberal technocracy I might sympathise but it is absurd to argue that their politics has not shifted. The neo-liberalism that was dominant between 1975-2008 is being put under pressure by its own contradictions (which includes populisms). The politics of socialists cannot be to prop up liberal technocracy but to seek to exploit the cracks that are opening, including the cracks created by populisms. That does not mean supporting populisms anymore than it should mean supporting liberalism, rather the aim has to be finding means of bringing class politics to the fore. Different individuals will have different views about how that might be done but a key part of it must be an attack on liberalism. None of which is (necessarily) incompatible with supporting the UK remaining in the EU, but class politics is missing from so many of the arguments.

 

[butchersapron]

What I have trouble understanding it how the bolded part can be related to Brexit. I can see it various superficial senses ("this will annoy lots of middle-class Londoners"; "let's send Brussels a message" etc), and maybe that was enough for some people. But it has always seemed obvious to me that Brexit without planning (a given in the actual case) would, inevitably for practical purposes, result in a project of deregulation and redistribution of wealth to the wealthy, as well as a drop in economic demand for labour, austerity and a rise in English nationalism. I find it hard to see what alternative vision people might have legitimately had. Even if there is an answer to that, it would surely have to depend on the intervention of a series of unlikely random events.

The eu itself tells you that it's motivation is deregulation and redistribution, the better to compete. But you find that hard to see.

 

[butchersapron]

I guess boosting right wing nationalism is one way to advance class conflict
my favourite bit of advancing the class conflict was having (We Voted Leave Now) Leave shouted at me and my partner

Or, the sort of politics that the EU mandates (not open to change via electoral support) is right wing wing extremism. It's beyond legitimating it, it is it.

 

[butchersapron]

How's that going for you?

I know plenty of socialists who believe the UK working classes would be better off in the EU than under a Tory government in an independent UK. It's not an unreasonable position. And I know plenty of working class people, including EU nationals who are shitting their pants about what happens at the end of the year. What comfort does your position offer them?

But comfort, come on. I Can post a pic of a EU slave labour camp in north africa. Of course people are scared, part of that has been this thunderous ignorance that has worked to make any anti-eu position into pro-racism. Like the above prat.

 

[brogdale]

Any any 'remain' supporter was aligning themselves with liberal technocracy? The only 'correct' position was to stand above it all?

I really don't think I've ever said (or implied) that a "correct position" existed in the intra-neoliberal contest to accelerate the consolidator state. Some on the 'left' sided with (neo)liberals wanting to retain UK membership of the supra state and others sided with the populist right, neoliberals in wanting to leave. As I've said before, my personal position of disengagement was not an attempt to establish a position of purity, above the fray but because I wasn't convinced that either outcome advanced the class conflict in a beneficial way.

 

[Raheem]

The eu itself tells you that it's motivation is deregulation and redistribution, the better to compete. But you find that hard to see.

I don't really understand this as a response. Are you saying "fuck the EU" was basically enough for you and you either didn't think or didn't care about what the alternative would be?

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

And you see this positions as socialist/communist/anarchist? It's the line taken by liberals every time - don't elect Corbyn he won't win, vote for Biden/Clinton/Blair, don't strike now you risk XYZ. As I said if you going to argue this position ok but look at where it is taking you.

Arguing against a Tory neo-liberal Brexit is doing none of those things. It’s just a pragmatic approach. You may not agree with it, but that’s all it is. I think the boost that Brexit has given the far-right is potentially very bad indeed, and best avoided. Doesn’t make me a liberal.
A bit fed up, though.

 

[butchersapron]

I don't really understand this as a response. Are you saying "fuck the EU" was basically enough for you and you either didn't think or didn't care about what the alternative would be?

I can't see or understand this post. I'm against deregulation and so i support a body designed to bring about deregulation.

I think that you do understand Raheem. You smug cunt.

 

[butchersapron]

Arguing against a Tory neo-liberal Brexit is doing none of those things. It’s just a pragmatic approach. You may not agree with it, but that’s all it is. I think the boost that Brexit has given the far-right is potentially very bad indeed, and best avoided. Doesn’t make me a liberal.
A bit fed up, though.

What's your limit anarchist? Franco vs Salazar.

 

[brogdale]

I suppose an anarchist position would have been to support leave in the hope that the greater state entity were somehow destabilised or even, ultimately destroyed by the initial fragmentation of Brexit. But again, I never really saw beyond the issue being one of slivers of sovereignty being shifted between the supra state and one unitary state. Also in the knowledge that any 'shared sovereignty' withdrawn by the UK would be used to accelerate fundamentalist free-trade neoliberal forces.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Almost as if Golden Dawn and other nasties didn't emerge IN the EU.

 

[teuchter]

Can post a pic of a EU slave labour camp in north africa.

Wait - it's still there, even though we've left the EU?

 

[Raheem]

I can't see or understand this post. I'm against deregulation and so i support a body designed to bring about deregulation.

I think that you do understand Raheem. You smug cunt.

I don't understand, but maybe there's nothing there to be understood.

 

[butchersapron]

I don't understand, but maybe there's nothing there to be understood.

Yep, beyond shitty one-liners you have sweet FA.

 

[Raheem]

At least you're not letting it get to you.

 

[maomao]

But comfort, come on. I Can post a pic of a EU slave labour camp in north africa. Of course people are scared, part of that has been this thunderous ignorance that has worked to make any anti-eu position into pro-racism. Like the above prat.

I don't see how clamping down on immigration at the Northern end of Europe helps immigrants in southern Europe. Unless you're suggesting we immiserate ourselves in solidarity.

 

[butchersapron]

I don't see how clamping down on immigration at the Northern end of Europe helps immigrants in southern Europe. Unless you're suggesting we immiserate ourselves in solidarity.

You understand how rhetoric works. Your post was version of that with added emotion.

I'd be quite happy with the eu lies being exposed, up for that.

 

[maomao]

You understand how rhetoric works. Your post was version of that with added emotion.

No, I literally mean that electing a racist party to enact a racist policy (and whatever forms of Brexit were available four years ago we got the racistest one) encourages the eu to enact racist policies and makes all our racists happy into the bargain.

The 44% of voters who voted to leave the eu might not have been racists but the 31% who voted to get Brexit done in 2019 were and now the racists are in charge. Immiseration is the only possible good outcome. It's all shit.

 

[butchersapron]

No, I literally mean that electing a racist party to enact a racist policy (and whatever forms of Brexit were available four years ago we got the racistest one) encourages the eu to enact racist policies and makes all our racists happy into the bargain.

The 44% of voters who voted to leave the eu might not have been racists but the 31% who voted to get Brexit done in 2019 were and now the racists are in charge. Immiseration is the only possible good outcome. It's all shit.

Can't help you then. The party against leave are pro-leave in this timeline. The Eu is the migrants mate.

 

[Marty1]

I guess boosting right wing nationalism is one way to advance class conflict
my favourite bit of advancing the class conflict was having (We Voted Leave Now) Leave shouted at me and my partner

Under what context/situation?

 

[butchersapron]

Everyone going but wars and erasmus - they are killing people right now because they are not white.

OL, change from within. What you doing?

 

[butchersapron]

Under what context/situation?

You can fuck off and all. Prick.

 

[ska invita]

Under what context/situation?

The day after the vote, walking down the road, shouted from a passing car. Heard of many incidents like that from friends, likely thousands across the UK.

Since we're going over old ground, when I remember Brexit the first thing that comes to mind is the racial tension in the two weeks leading up, the sick feeling in my stomach, and then that outpouring of hate the day after.

Of course it's not new... Speaking personally a few years back I had a coin thrown at me followed by Theres a Euro fuck off back to Poland. I was impressed they could tell I wasn't born here.
As a white guy I no doubt experience a tiny fraction of what others do.

 

[yield]

If you are going to take political actions to support that liberal democracy, rather than political actions that advance the class conflict then you are siding with liberalism.

What I have trouble understanding it how the bolded part can be related to Brexit. I can see it various superficial senses ("this will annoy lots of middle-class Londoners"; "let's send Brussels a message" etc), and maybe that was enough for some people.

Give over

But it has always seemed obvious to me that Brexit without planning (a given in the actual case) would, inevitably for practical purposes, result in a project of deregulation and redistribution of wealth to the wealthy, as well as a drop in economic demand for labour, austerity and a rise in English nationalism.

There's been a massive rise of nationalism and the far right across the EU. I'm sure you know about the falling average living standards and rising inequality - especially in Greece.

The EU is, like the WTO, from its founding, "a project of deregulation and redistribution of wealth to the wealthy"

Globalists: The End of Empire and the Birth of Neoliberalism by Quinn Slobodian (a europhile) is good if dry on this. Hayek, Mises and others, and their reaction to the collapse of the Austro-Hungarian Empire.

Neoliberalism’s World Order (book review) Adam Tooze ▪ Summer 2018

Since its inception, neoliberalism has sought not to demolish the state, but to create an international order strong enough to override democracy in the service of private property.

I find it hard to see what alternative vision people might have legitimately had. Even if there is an answer to that, it would surely have to depend on the intervention of a series of unlikely random events.

Frying pan or the fire unless there's a fight for something. Those "political actions that advance the class conflict". Agency rather than chance