ska invita Jesus wept that's horrible mate.
The big Brexit thread - news, updates and discussion
- Thread starter brogdale
- Start date
Raheem
Well-Known Member
So maybe it would be rational enough to have left the decision to fate. But I have a hard time understanding someone who would choose fire and then when you ask them why, they point you to information suggesting that frying pans can be hot.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Of course boosting right wing nationalism in favour of class conflict would be absurd and frankly terrible. But who is doing or arguing such? (Besides perhaps the RCG wankers). Those voting for leave? If so ok course the same logic would be applied to other voters, for example those that voted LibDem in 2010 were supporting austerity.
The biggest boost the popular radical right has received has been the refusal of so many on the left to throw away class politics.
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Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
Most of those who voted Lib Dem in 2010 (not me) did not support austerity. That’s why their vote collapsed at the next election. Lots of them, perhaps most, voted Lib Dem to keep the Tories out.
With Brexit it was clear from the start that all the racists, fascists, far right, RCP relics etc were in favour it. Plenty of others were pro Brexit as well, but none of the far right were pro EU (unless you can prove me wrong).
Smangus
comatose at a desk
Under what context/situation?
He's explained now so where's your fucking smug questioning raised eyebrows now then you horrible cunt?
Blimey!
How did the people in the car know you were a remainer tho?
Also, what part of the country do you live? I’m also white and haven’t had any referendum grief whatsoever.
Edit: the only abuse I know of is one of our Hungarian drivers was asked by a customer as he was delivering a parcel ‘so what are you going to do now then’ in a smirky derogatory manner.
Driver reported the abuse and Amazon closed abusive customers account for driver abuse
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redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
With Brexit it was clear from the start that liberals, the Tory party, LibDems, capital, the CBI were all opposed to it so was a vote for remaining a boost to liberalism?
And plenty of socialist, communist and anarchist groups were supportive of a leave vote, in fact the only socialist group I know of that supported remain were the AWL.
You've gone from arguing against leaving the EU to arguing against 'a Tory neo-liberal Brexit' those are not the same. Is it a pragmatic approach to argue for a vote for Labour at the next election? What about the LibDems? How how do you take this pragmatism?
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Theresa May, not a racist, good stuff
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Clearly the (then) Tory government were remain, but it's obviously not the case that the Tory party (Parliamentary or Associations) were. Similarly with capital, the formal representatives like the CBI/IoD might have backed the Government remain position, but clearly there were many capitalists who recognised Brexit as a means to deregulate their way to increased rates of accumulation.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
And individual members of the LP were in favour of leaving, as were the most radical UK unions. Come on you must recognise that any argument based on 'these bastards supported X' is crap.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
That's kind of what i was saying, tbf.
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
Which fucking planet are you on? Don’t bother to answer.
ska invita
back on the other side
appreciate the empathy but its absolutely nothing compared to what other people go through.
theres a personal side to all the brexit stuff and then theres long term strategic revolutionary goals and action - so many pros and cons to weigh up, and i tend to err towards a long view of history so totally get sometimes there's short term pain for long term gain. whether a left take on brexit can lead to a long term gain... im open to the idea but wary considering where all the political momentum is these days. votes dont happen in a vacuum they happen in a context.
i will say this, i felt as if non-british natives were thrown under a bus by much of what i heard and read said by many lexiters, and it felt like an inconsiderate betrayal - a class betrayal in fact - that in all honesty i'll never forget and has led me to draw certain conclusions about the limits of how certain parts of the left think. to me the totemic expression of that is the repeated times george galloway went grinning on stage hand shaking nigel farage <its what sums it up to me as a public moment.
objectively i think brexit has been really bad for class unity: its not the only factor of course, but its dynamic has pushed on a cultural/value rift, a generational rift, and its led a proportion of working class voters to not only vote tory for the first time, but keep their support there if polls are to be believed (though boris's repeated fuck ups are starting to do for him at least).
still hope springs eternal, we are where we are, i hope we can make some long term good of it all.
Ive never watched the Labour left fuck themselves so hard as what happened with Brexit. Labour betrayed their working class base - people who voted for them all their lives like my family who walked away from Labour when they went pro remain.
Humberto
minor kerfuffles ensue
No voters betrayed their 'working-class base'. It was a real choice.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
The photo depicts the expression of someone out of their depth who is thinking 'wtf just happened?'
wemakeyousoundb
hopefully not gimboid
it rather looks to me like the sheer happiness brought on by eating blue cheese.
sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
It was the whole point of brexit, divide and conquer, the oldest trick in the book, and some on the left fell for it.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
I remember hearing a RMT spokesperson speak for Leave/Lexit at a meeting before June 2016 focussing on exactly this point; if the UK were free from the supra state the UK would be free to increase state aid to key industries (like rail) and renationalise the assets stolen from the people.
Turns out that the first substantial single bilateral trade deal undermines that key tenet of their position.
Turns out that the first substantial single bilateral trade deal undermines that key tenet of their position.
I don't see how it undermines it unless the RMT spokesperson was claiming this would inevitably happen regardless of the government and wider political context and I highly doubt they were. It's not like there hasn't been two general elections since the referendum.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Long time ago, now...but from my memory of the RMT position put forward it was similar to that shown below, it wasn't made contingent upon any particular Parliamentary situation; the point was that exiting the supra state would make it possible to bring all of rail back into public ownership.
Turns out, that was wrong.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
yes. i've been watching your attempts to unify people with interest, not to say amusement
Make it possible doesn't mean inevitable, I can't see how you're reading that to mean they expected a Conservative government to immediately renationalise the railways, or believe they ever said anything like that at the time.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
no one knows what FoRB stands for
and this is the first time anyone has heard from him in years
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
That's a fair point but, given that the first substantial bilateral has chopped off the possibility at the knees, it would be an interesting hypothetical exercise to consider how a Labour government, (a Labour government!) might have fared better in it's bilateral dealings and which other nations would have signed up to treaties permitting such state 'aid'.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Indeed; as a niche passtime I tend to follow all the tory MPs where my extended family still live.
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