The big Brexit thread - news, updates and discussion

[Lucy Fur]

The UK won’t be a laughing stock for long. After Scotland and Northern Ireland leave we’ll just be known as K.

The mother of all K-holes...

 

[Smangus]

Who on earth do you think you are fooling?





Your next paragraph is almost as hilarious as your first.

So you deludedly think the public would be happy for further extension of some unknown time span?

And how would this be achieved?

Don't tell him Pike!

 

[SpookyFrank]

Let's be even clearer then - the tory-led part of your oft repeated tory-led brexit is redundant. You would oppose any brexit at all - and i would guess, especially a labour-left led one given your fantasist hyperbole over the last 4 years about trots and reds under the bed. Which is what led you and people like you to force an election losing strategy based on that position on that labour-left as only brexit matters and to a situation where the hardest brexit possible is now the most likely outcome whilst crowding out any voices looking for an other form of brexit via shrill liberal priestly denunciation covering yourself in the eu flag of anti-racism. But, nothing to do with you. In fact, everyone else is guilty.

You're aware 'tory led' was the only brexit on the menu I assume?

 

[maomao]

You are one of the many reasons people voted the Tories into power with a massive majority.

Everyone's responsible for you being a prick except you.

 

[Pickman's model]

You're aware 'tory led' was the only brexit on the menu I assume?

Apart from the two opportunities to vote them out since 23/6/16

 

[ska invita]

Apart from the two opportunities to vote them out since 23/6/16

i did but the tory brexit party still won

 

[Pickman's model]

i did but the tory brexit party still won

as opposed to the labour brexit party I imagine

 

[Raheem]

Johnson's defence in today's Telegraph seems to boil down to "I took an enormous gamble, I badly miscalculated and it's going to lead to a historic fuck-up, so now I need to be allowed to take an enormous gamble."

 

[not-bono-ever]

classic doubling down mindset. well documented stuff really. The shitty thing is that fuck ups for this approach merely boost self esteem and likely lead to more fuck ups as egotistical shitbags like johnson have more appetite for wielding of their power. It rarely ends well for anyone outside the inner circle tugfest. yeh but corbyn obvs

 

[MrSpikey]

The UK won’t be a laughing stock for long. After Scotland and Northern Ireland leave we’ll just be known as K.

Given the current source of Tory policy and their desire to radically remake society to match their own ideology, presumably the plan is that K will stand for King Dom?

 

[Dogsauce]

The Untied King Dom.

 

[redsquirrel]

You're aware 'tory led' was the only brexit on the menu I assume?

If it was it was because of what BA outlines below.

Let's be even clearer then - the tory-led part of your oft repeated tory-led brexit is redundant. You would oppose any brexit at all - and i would guess, especially a labour-left led one given your fantasist hyperbole over the last 4 years about trots and reds under the bed. Which is what led you and people like you to force an election losing strategy based on that position on that labour-left as only brexit matters and to a situation where the hardest brexit possible is now the most likely outcome whilst crowding out any voices looking for an other form of brexit via shrill liberal priestly denunciation covering yourself in the eu flag of anti-racism. But, nothing to do with you. In fact, everyone else is guilty.

If you are going to argue for the UK to remain in the EU argue for it on the basis of socialism/anarchism, and make sure that as part of that argument you are fighting against liberal wankers like sleater.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

If it was it was because of what BA outlines below.
If you are going to argue for the UK to remain in the EU argue for it on the basis of socialism/anarchism, and make sure that as part of that argument you are fighting against liberal wankers like sleater.

It’s more a case, surely, of not wanting to exit the EU under right wing Tory terms. That was and is all that Is on offer. The EU is crap in so many ways, but a Tory nationalistic xenophobic Brexit is so much worse

 

[sleaterkinney]

If it was it was because of what BA outlines below.
If you are going to argue for the UK to remain in the EU argue for it on the basis of socialism/anarchism, and make sure that as part of that argument you are fighting against liberal wankers like sleater.

Oooohh look at you calling names!

 

[sleaterkinney]

It’s more a case, surely, of not wanting to exit the EU under right wing Tory terms. That was and is all that Is on offer. The EU is crap in so many ways, but a Tory nationalistic xenophobic Brexit is so much worse

Not to mention the “disruption” and shock that Cummings favours. Plenty of downsides in standing with them.

 

[MickiQ]

If it was it was because of what BA outlines below.
If you are going to argue for the UK to remain in the EU argue for it on the basis of socialism/anarchism, and make sure that as part of that argument you are fighting against liberal wankers like sleater.

Why? You're right that there is no possibility of achieving the socialist state you want inside the EU but there isn't outside it either so why does it factor into the argument?

 

[SpookyFrank]

If it was it was because of what BA outlines below.
If you are going to argue for the UK to remain in the EU...

I'm not going to do that. But there's a long way between arguing to remain in the EU (and what would be the point of that at this stage anyway, whatever line of argument was used) and relentlessly browbeating who didn't support an imaginary leftist version of brexit.

 

[redsquirrel]

It’s more a case, surely, of not wanting to exit the EU under right wing Tory terms. That was and is all that Is on offer. The EU is crap in so many ways, but a Tory nationalistic xenophobic Brexit is so much worse

Why? You're right that there is no possibility of achieving the socialist state you want inside the EU but there isn't outside it either so why does it factor into the argument?

Why should socialists/anarchist base their political actions on socialism/anarchist? I would have thought that was pretty obvious.

No one mentioned "achieving the socialist state", I talked about starting from a basis of socialism, i.e. class conflict. Now if you want to write out that class conflict out of the equation do so, but then admit you are signing up for liberalism.

I'm not going to do that. But there's a long way between arguing to remain in the EU (and what would be the point of that at this stage anyway, whatever line of argument was used) and relentlessly browbeating who didn't support an imaginary leftist version of brexit.

Liberalism is the force you, if you're an (class-struggle) anarchist, is going to be fighting against. And it's more important than ever that socialists, communists and anarchists attack that ideology. The willingness of certain 'socialists' to align with liberals was always harmful and stupid but the incoherence of that position was somewhat hidden in the 90s/00s. That's no longer the case, now with the challenge of populisms to liberalism the political conflict between socialism and liberalism is sharper and you will have to come down on a side.

 

[teqniq]

Johnson in yesterday's torygraph. I took the trouble of reading it. It appears to be dishonest vacuous drivel with a generous helping of smoke and mirrors:

Prime Minister's article in the Telegraph: 12 September 2020

Prime Minister Boris Johnson's piece in the Telegraph.

www.gov.uk

 

[brogdale]

The willingness of certain 'socialists' to align with liberals was always harmful and stupid but the incoherence of that position was somewhat hidden in the 90s/00s. That's no longer the case, now with the challenge of populisms to liberalism the political conflict between socialism and liberalism is sharper and you will have to come down on a side.

True, but as Streeck made clear in his 2013 conclusion to Buying Time, for those that regard the neoliberal consolidator state, rather than resurgent nationalism, as the greater threat to working class interests, the independent nation state might best serve the purpose of resistance. Of course, as we saw with the 'Lexit' project, that ironically caused certain 'socialists' to align with 'nationalist' (neoliberal) interests in what may now appear to be a harmful and stupid manner.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Why should socialists/anarchist base their political actions on socialism/anarchist? I would have thought that was pretty obvious.

No one mentioned "achieving the socialist state", I talked about starting from a basis of socialism, i.e. class conflict. Now if you want to write out that class conflict out of the equation do so, but then admit you are signing up for liberalism.
Liberalism is the force you, if you're an (class-struggle) anarchist, is going to be fighting against. And it's more important than ever that socialists, communists and anarchists attack that ideology. The willingness of certain 'socialists' to align with liberals was always harmful and stupid but the incoherence of that position was somewhat hidden in the 90s/00s. That's no longer the case, now with the challenge of populisms to liberalism the political conflict between socialism and liberalism is sharper and you will have to come down on a side.

There are times when the immediate concerns take precedence. Take the Iraq war. There were all kinds of reasons why different people were against it, but there was a need to make alliances with others to achieve the goal, unsuccessful as it happens. I wasn’t signing up for pacifism, or Islam, or veganism, or Christianity, or Maoism, or the Liberal Democrat’s just because they were on the march as well.
As for Brexit, if Trump wins, or stages a coup, and the Johnson gang are still in power we could end up going down a very dark road. I’d rather have stuck with the EU ta very much, for all its very many and serious faults.

 

[MickiQ]

Does class conflict not exist in the EU then? If anything the general populace of Europe are far more active in this regard than we Brits

 

[Ax^]

Johnson in yesterday's torygraph. I took the trouble of reading it. It appears to be dishonest vacuous drivel with a generous helping of smoke and mirrors:

Prime Minister's article in the Telegraph: 12 September 2020

Prime Minister Boris Johnson's piece in the Telegraph.

www.gov.uk

so the same sort of shit that always comes out when he opens his mouth

 

[Artaxerxes]

Does class conflict not exist in the EU then? If anything the general populace of Europe are far more active in this regard than we Brits

The UK has a very odd relationship to both class and authority and I'm convinced it's because we never managed to get a full revolution going. The descendants of the same people in charge a few hundred years ago are still in charge today.

Compare that to the rest of Europe where things have been rather more fluid the last century.

 

[butchersapron]

There are times when the immediate concerns take precedence. Take the Iraq war. There were all kinds of reasons why different people were against it, but there was a need to make alliances with others to achieve the goal, unsuccessful as it happens. I wasn’t signing up for pacifism, or Islam, or veganism, or Christianity, or Maoism, or the Liberal Democrat’s just because they were on the march as well.
As for Brexit, if Trump wins, or stages a coup, and the Johnson gang are still in power we could end up going down a very dark road. I’d rather have stuck with the EU ta very much, for all its very many and serious faults.

Anarchism 2020 - demanding the impossible, daring to dream, building from ruins etc

 

[butchersapron]

The UK has a very odd relationship to both class and authority and I'm convinced it's because we never managed to get a full revolution going. The descendants of the same people in charge a few hundred years ago are still in charge today.

Compare that to the rest of Europe where things have been rather more fluid the last century.

Ok, that revolution where we killed the king. Exactly what all these other countries didn't do. The one that had fascist and authoritarian dictatorships. Lovely fluid. And as if the global system is due to personal deference and individual caprice.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Anarchism 2020 - demanding the impossible, daring to dream, building from ruins etc

Anarchism 2020? Long live Tory neo-liberal Brexit?

 

[butchersapron]

Anarchism 2020? Long live Tory neo-liberal Brexit?

Uh-huh. Oh yes.

 

[redsquirrel]

There are times when the immediate concerns take precedence. Take the Iraq war. There were all kinds of reasons why different people were against it, but there was a need to make alliances with others to achieve the goal, unsuccessful as it happens. I wasn’t signing up for pacifism, or Islam, or veganism, or Christianity, or Maoism, or the Liberal Democrat’s just because they were on the march as well.

There's working with social democrat, liberal or even conservative groups within a limited campaign and there is aligned yourself with such people

As for Brexit, if Trump wins, or stages a coup, and the Johnson gang are still in power we could end up going down a very dark road. I’d rather have stuck with the EU ta very much, for all its very many and serious faults.

Fine but then you are signing up for liberalism.

True, but as Streeck made clear in his 2013 conclusion to Buying Time, for those that regard the neoliberal consolidator state, rather than resurgent nationalism, as the greater threat to working class interests, the independent nation state might best serve the purpose of resistance.
Of course, as we saw with the 'Lexit' project, that ironically caused certain 'socialists' to align with 'nationalist' (neoliberal) interests in what may now appear to be a harmful and stupid manner.

Which socialists aligned with nationalist (I presume you national populist) interests? The RCG and Galloway? OK but those wankers left socialist politics behind them a long time ago. The majority of socialists that argued against the EU did so based on socialism, on class conflict.

It is pretty simple neither liberal technocracy nor national populism but socialism. If one is so scared of the latter that you flee into the arms of the former ok but then be honest about what your politics now are.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Fine but then you are signing up for liberalism.

I’m not signing up for anything. I’m sure most German socialists in the 1930’s would have rather lived under the Weimar Republic than under the Nazis. Most sensible people from most political persuasions would rather live in a liberal democracy than under left or right wing dictatorships. That’s just being realistic.