The big Brexit thread - news, updates and discussion

[ska invita]

It seems clear from all the noises from Johnsons faithful that they really believe they are playing hardball here to get the EU to "give them what they want". All I can see is flying in the face of border facts and a looming crash out.
They've been convinced from the off that the EU needs the UK more than/as much as the UK needs the EU...this plus generations of inbred arrogance is the only explanation I can find for what they're doing. The need for illegality in this Internal Market Bill is the bit where they buck up on the hard reality of the new post-brexit borders - their solution is more paradoxical cake and eat nonsense from what i can see.

they dont want a border between the north and ireland, and they dont want one in the irish sea.
theyve agreed to no border between the north and ireland in the WA, and now they hope to magic away the one in the irish sea through obstinance
may be proved wrong but i cant see any theoretical way through this other than a crash out

 

[two sheds]

How's a border in the Irish Sea going to be policed? It's in GB/NI's interest to just let traffic flow. EU gunboats on patrol?

 

[ska invita]

Ditching the treaty was apparently always part of the plan:

just saw this:

"On his blog in March 2019, when May was in power, Cummings addressed “dear Vote Leave activists”: “don’t worry about the so-called ‘permanent’ commitments this historically abysmal Cabinet are trying to make on our behalf. They are not ‘permanent’ and a serious government — one not cowed by officials and their bullshit ‘legal advice’ with which they have herded ministers like sheep — will dispense with these commitments.”

In May, Steve Baker, former chair of the European Research Group, wrote in The Critic that Cummings “said we should vote for the original withdrawal agreement without reading it, on the basis Michael Gove articulated: we could change it later”. This had indeed been Gove’s line since December 2017: “If the British people dislike the agreement that we have negotiated with the EU, the agreement will allow a future government to diverge.”

This idea that Britain could sign the withdrawal agreement with its fingers crossed behind its back and then just ignore it later on is, in a way, perfectly consistent with the larger mentality of Brexit. At the heart of its theology is the fantasy that there is such a thing as absolute national sovereignty, a complete unilateral freedom of action that had been taken away by EU membership. Once Britain is “unchained” from the EU, Britain can do whatever it damn well pleases. The withdrawal treaty is not a set of permanent obligations, merely a route towards the obligation-free future that starts on 1 January 2021."

Boris Johnson's 'oven-ready' Brexit had a secret footnote: we'll rehash it later | Fintan O'Toole

Suggesting Britain could sign the withdrawal agreement with its fingers crossed makes perfect sense for a government of liars, says Irish Times columnist Fintan O’Toole

www.theguardian.com

 

[Winot]

How's a border in the Irish Sea going to be policed? It's in GB/NI's interest to just let traffic flow. EU gunboats on patrol?

It seems to me that the practicalities are less important than the principle. It seems that Johnson agreed the WA in bad faith. The EU are correct to require that he row back from breaking the WA. If he fails to do so then how can they trust him again?

 

[TopCat]

Wow. You still BELIEVE.

I can see how the prospect of Brexit has got the flag-waving right wingers and nationalists all wet in their gussets, but I didn't realise Brexit was going to free us from capitalism too.

View attachment 229956

You lost the vote. A willingness to compromise from the remainers might well have avoided this tory govt.

 

[Marty1]

You lost the vote. A willingness to compromise from the remainers might well have avoided this tory govt.

Correct, Corbyn would be residing at No.10 if Labour had embraced Brexit.

 

[ska invita]

Correct, Corbyn would be residing at No.10 if Labour has embraced Brexit.

You're wrong, but please lets no pick over the rubble yet again here

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

You lost the vote. A willingness to compromise from the remainers might well have avoided this tory govt.

There was no such thing as a straightforward, simple ‘vote’. There was a referendum with a question which meant different things to different people, with no plan as to what to do next. That was and is the problem. When Tories ask a question they aren’t waiting for an answer, because they already know what they want the answer to be.
We got lumbered with this effing government in large part because the Labour right wing preferred to lose rather than win with Corbyn at the helm.
A pro Brexit vote was always going to end up with a Tory Brexit

 

[Yossarian]

Have you noticed how all the pro-Brexit people seem to be getting progressively quieter? Perhaps even they're realising that it's a Class A Clusterfuck.

What I don't understand is that the economy is collapsing amidst a global pandemic, nobody knows what the fuck is going to be happening from one week to the next, and the government is still steaming ahead with this ridiculous Brexit shit.

Stay in the EU, leave the EU, leave the EU and rejoin it in 10 years, whatever, history will record it as a trivial trade dispute between wealthy neighbours - there should be overwhelming public support for hitting the pause button for a year or two until things get to somewhere approaching normal.

 

[Struwwelpeter]

You lost the vote. A willingness to compromise from the remainers might well have avoided this tory govt.

Whatever but we are here now. Leavers need to own up to their actions rather than blaming everyone else. What do you think should happen now?

 

[ska invita]

It seems to me that the practicalities are less important than the principle. It seems that Johnson agreed the WA in bad faith. The EU are correct to require that he row back from breaking the WA. If he fails to do so then how can they trust him again?

i find the language about faith and trust misleading, as if its some kind of personal slight, that has to be corrected to maintain honour, mafia style
from my understanding this is still the old "wheres the irish border going to be" question
they agreed it would be in the sea, and now they're saying Ha, not really
so where will it be then?

 

[Winot]

i find the language about faith and trust misleading, as if its some kind of personal slight, that has to be corrected to maintain honour, mafia style
from my understanding this is still the old "wheres the irish border going to be" question
they agreed it would be in the sea, and now they're saying Ha, not really
so where will it be then?

Also true. The fact is there is not and never was an Irish border solution that keeps all parties happy.

 

[Marty1]

What I don't understand is that the economy is collapsing amidst a global pandemic, nobody knows what the fuck is going to be happening from one week to the next, and the government is still steaming ahead with this ridiculous Brexit shit.

Just forget about the whole shebang?

 

[ska invita]

Also true. The fact is there is not and never was an Irish border solution that keeps all parties happy.

The Irish Sea option seemed like the best outcome. May couldn't have it because of the DUP holding the balance of power. Johnson won't have it because he wants to eat his cake and have it.
Seems to me this step moves the border back to the old N Ireland/Ireland one... and dares anyone to impose it. I remember Johnson saying all along, before becoming PM, it doesn't matter because the UK won't impose it - if so then the onus falls on Ireland and the EU to do so, which they won't in the name of the peace process.
An anomaly only reunification would resolve. Or maybe some future technological fix, years down the line.
??
Unless there's a major plot twist I can't see what else could happen.

 

[Yossarian]

Just forget about the whole shebang?

In the very next paragraph, I suggested "hitting the pause button" - but instead you chose to highlight a few words and misrepresent my position, because you're a dishonest, trolling, alt-right sack of shit.

 

[sleaterkinney]

You lost the vote. A willingness to compromise from the remainers might well have avoided this tory govt.

The people in charge now were the people who were in charge of the leave campaign. This is what that enabled.

 

[butchersapron]

The people in charge now were the people who were in charge of the leave campaign. This is what that enabled.

A tory led remain was your favoured option. Let's be clear on that.

This is your mess. You demanded that brexit have more importance than winning the election and imposed a policy that led to both a hard brexit and losing the election. Genius stuff. and you talk about enabling? Take some responsibility instead of bleating tory-led tory-led.

 

[butchersapron]

People like sleater and their media catspaws crowded out the merest hint of any other debate about the EU opening up with their you're all racists nonsense. Turning a blind eye whilst their eu extends it's racist murder operation further into eurasia and africa. Why chance do we have against these people? None but mutiny. Oh yeah, or a studied i'm against both really (but i couldn't do anything ghastly).

 

[Pickman's model]

tbh, I think loads of people will be having some very cold winter nights on the streets. This is going to turn very, very ugly indeed

Sleeping out in the open with but a flag to protect you cold indeed

 

[brogdale]

People like sleater and their media catspaws crowded out the merest hint of any other debate about the EU opening up with their you're all racists nonsense. Turning a blind eye whilst their eu extends it's racist murder operation further into eurasia and africa. Why chance do we have against these people? None but mutiny. Oh yeah, or a studied i'm against both really (but i couldn't do anything ghastly).

Declining the opportunity to engage with or legitimate a vote between 2 ghastly racist, murdering alternative visions of neoliberalism has always seemed to me a valid position, studied or not. Nothing that has passed since 2016 has changed my view on that.

 

[butchersapron]

Declining to get involved in politics. Great. Sleater didn't and look what happened.

My point is that this was always a pro-eu declining. More form than content. Zero engagement beyond pious hand-washing.

 

[Pickman's model]

That will certainly happen. Ten years, maximum.

Boris Alexander Johnson, you have pleaded guilty to the charges brought by this court and it is now my duty to pass sentence. You are an habitual criminal who accepts arrest as an occupational hazard and presumably accepts imprisonment in the same casual manner. We therefore feel constrained to commit you to the maximum term for these offences: you will go to prison for ten years.

 

[Pickman's model]

Declining the opportunity to engage with or legitimate a vote between 2 ghastly racist, murdering alternative visions of neoliberalism has always seemed to me a valid position, studied or not. Nothing that has passed since 2016 has changed my view on that.

British neoliberalism for little brits

 

[ska invita]

In the very next paragraph, I suggested "hitting the pause button" - but instead you chose to highlight a few words and misrepresent my position, because you're a dishonest, trolling, alt-right sack of shit.

no need to pause something thats going to plan
in fact covid provides some handy cover for economic fallout

 

[Pickman's model]

In the very next paragraph, I suggested "hitting the pause button" - but instead you chose to highlight a few words and misrepresent my position, because you're a dishonest, trolling, alt-right sack of shit.

Now let's hit the flush

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Boris Alexander Johnson, you have pleaded guilty to the charges brought by this court and it is now my duty to pass sentence. You are an habitual criminal who accepts arrest as an occupational hazard and presumably accepts imprisonment in the same casual manner. We therefore feel constrained to commit you to the maximum term for these offences: you will go to prison for ten years.

However, as law-breaking is now legal you are free to go.

 

[Pickman's model]

However, as law-breaking is now legal you are free to go

to South Georgia to join the project for penguin conservation

 

[brogdale]

Declining to get involved in politics. Great. Sleater didn't and look what happened.

My point is that this was always a pro-eu declining. More form than content. Zero engagement beyond pious hand-washing.

Yep, hands up on that one; from the Tory adoption of an in/out referendum as a means to lance their own intra-party factional division, I've consistently not found the will to engage one way or the other. All of my previous political involvement has been predicated on a belief that some positive change might result; without that belief, I was never going to favour or advocate for one of the neoliberal positions offered to the electorate.

That said, I'm not consciously striving to wash my hands of it, but if my take comes across like that, I suppose that's one risk of the minority position of non-engagement on the Brexit issue.

 

[butchersapron]

Yep, hands up on that one; from the Tory adoption of an in/out referendum as a means to lance their own intra-party factional division, I've consistently not found the will to engage one way or the other. All of my previous political involvement has been predicated on a belief that some positive change might result; without that belief, I was never going to favour or advocate for one of the neoliberal positions offered to the electorate.

That said, I'm not consciously striving to wash my hands of it, but if my take comes across like that, I suppose that's one risk of the minority position of non-engagement on the Brexit issue.

Is it really non-engagement when one position is consistently branded as being nose-led by false consciousness?

 

[SpookyFrank]

People like sleater and their media catspaws crowded out the merest hint of any other debate about the EU opening up with their you're all racists nonsense. Turning a blind eye whilst their eu extends it's racist murder operation further into eurasia and africa. Why chance do we have against these people? None but mutiny. Oh yeah, or a studied i'm against both really (but i couldn't do anything ghastly).

Why don't you just skip ahead to telling us all what the correct answer was?