The big Brexit thread - news, updates and discussion

[bimble]

I don’t get all these posts about sudden realisations about the true nature of the EU after their gargantuan fuckups re the vaccine. I mean, do you also no longer think our government are a bunch of incompetent mendacious clowns just because they seem to have done a decent job on the vaccine rollout?

 

[TopCat]

I don’t get all these posts about sudden realisations about the true nature of the EU after their gargantuan fuckups re the vaccine. I mean, do you also no longer think our government are a bunch of incompetent mendacious clowns just because they seem to have done a decent job on the vaccine rollout?

The EU project mask has slipped off, again.
This weeks events have shown the inherent lack of democracy and the power disparities between members.

 

[TopCat]

I don’t get all these posts about sudden realisations about the true nature of the EU after their gargantuan fuckups re the vaccine. I mean, do you also no longer think our government are a bunch of incompetent mendacious clowns just because they seem to have done a decent job on the vaccine rollout?

I think both. What do you think of events in the last week?

 

[bimble]

I think both. What do you think of events in the last week?

I’m depressed by it all tbh. Worried about how all this will impact the tone of the future relationship between Uk & eu. Also shocked that U vd L had the power all by herself to do a massively stupid thing like she did, really did not know that was possible. Hasn’t changed my broader view though, it’s not a love affair it’s a trading block.

 

[kebabking]

I don’t get all these posts about sudden realisations about the true nature of the EU after their gargantuan fuckups re the vaccine. I mean, do you also no longer think our government are a bunch of incompetent mendacious clowns just because they seem to have done a decent job on the vaccine rollout?

The EU has spent the last five years honking off about being a values-based organisation that has Ireland at the heart of its union, and that keeping the border not a border has been the fundamental tenet of its approach to Brexit.

A month later it throws Ireland under the bus at 8pm on a Friday night because the EC has fucked its vaccine purchase and the Irish government finds out about it on twitter.

I don't have a problem with naked power games because that it what nation states are for, but I do have a problem with crowing hypocrisy about values, solidarity, and peace and then unhesitatingly shit-canning the lot of it because VDL can't read a contract that she wrote, and looks really stupid.

 

[The39thStep]

I don’t get all these posts about sudden realisations about the true nature of the EU after their gargantuan fuckups re the vaccine. I mean, do you also no longer think our government are a bunch of incompetent mendacious clowns just because they seem to have done a decent job on the vaccine rollout?

What sudden realisation ? Some of us have been banging on about the true nature issue since before the referendum. Its not only possible to be critical of and hold both the UK government and the EU to account, its essential. The current and relatively successful roll out of the vaccine in the UK is something to be celebrated but it doesn't excuse the their disastrous handling of covid 19 overall.

 

[eatmorecheese]

I don’t get all these posts about sudden realisations about the true nature of the EU after their gargantuan fuckups re the vaccine. I mean, do you also no longer think our government are a bunch of incompetent mendacious clowns just because they seem to have done a decent job on the vaccine rollout?

A pox on both their houses, one doesn't follow the other. See kebabking post above.

 

[TopCat]

Hasn’t changed my broader view though, it’s not a love affair it’s a trading block.

If it was just a trading block like the EEA once was I would not have voted leave.

 

[bimble]

What sudden realisation ? Some of us have been banging on about the true nature issue since before the referendum. Its not only possible to be critical of and hold both the UK government and the EU to account, its essential. The current and relatively successful roll out of the vaccine in the UK is something to be celebrated but it doesn't excuse the their disastrous handling of covid 19 overall.

Sudden realisations I just meant the recent posts from people saying they voted to remain but events of the last couple of days have changed their mind.

 

[Rushy]

Markus Söder, the Bavarian premier and Germany's possible future chancellor, told ZDF television on Friday that it was his impression that the commission "ordered too late, and only bet on a few companies, they agreed on a price in a typically bureaucratic EU procedure and completely underestimated the fundamental importance of the situation".

Interesting interview on World at One on, I think, Thursday. It made the point that individual Euro member states have lots of expertise independently negotiating multi billion purchase contracts but the negotiating was centralised in the interests of The Project and Brussels does not have the same experience. For all the talk earlier of the EU lawyers running rings around pharma cos, it seems they possibly just lacked experience.

 

[bimble]

On an unrelated note, how come the contracts signed by the government to buy stuff with our money are not in the public domain as a normal thing?

 

[TopCat]

On an unrelated note, how come the contracts signed by the government to buy stuff with our money are not in the public domain as a normal thing?

Emergency procurement arrangements. Same as the EU. Normally any contract of ten thousand quid get a lengthy tender process inc some transparency.
The pandemic, due to its immediate nature meant allowable divergence from the normal process.

 

[Pickman's model]

On an unrelated note, how come the contracts signed by the government to buy stuff with our money are not in the public domain as a normal thing?

It's so much easier to be corrupt when you can hide the evidence

 

[kabbes]

Sudden realisations I just meant the recent posts from people saying they voted to remain but events of the last couple of days have changed their mind.

No, events over the last 4 years have been changing my mind. As I said, this is just the final nail in the coffin.

 

[Rushy]

Interesting interview on World at One on, I think, Thursday. It made the point that individual Euro member states have lots of expertise independently negotiating multi billion purchase contracts but the negotiating was centralised in the interests of The Project and Brussels does not have the same experience. For all the talk earlier of the EU lawyers running rings around pharma cos, it seems they possibly just lacked experience.

The EU seems to be arguing that their decision to prioritise 27 state unity over agility and speed should not put them at any disadvantage when it comes to contractual outcomes. It does look remarkably like wanting to have your cake and eat it.

 

[The39thStep]

Some interesting snippets in the Portuguese media. This is from RTP which is the equivalent of the BBC. If the text doesn't flow its not because of their English its because I have to use google translate.

Firstly it seems that the original intention of the EU was that all vaccines would be produced in the EU

the European Commission had imposed as a contractual condition that all vaccines to be purchased were produced in European territory (in the case of AstraZeneca and in the contract signed on August 28, 2020, Brexit was still being negotiated, producers were admitted on British soil) and reserved for their own citizens.

Secondly despite the apparent new found need for transparency RTP points out that

European citizens have not been informed of the actual price of each dose of the vaccine, which varies by pharmaceutical company

. Most Member States decided to inoculate their population free of charge, which seems to shelve questions.In contracts, this information is hidden. The European Commission's explanation is simple. " At this stage, the specific price per dose is still subject to confidentiality obligations "

The third interesting bit is that of liability which seems to contradict Anju assertion that the EU have managed to negotiate contracts which hold vaccine manufacturers to account for future problems and that any claims against them have to be defended and if lost compensated from their own pockets.

Another possible controversy concerns who assumes the payment of damages to the affected people in case something goes wrong .

In both contracts, with AstraZeneca and CureVac, this responsibility is assumed by each Member State , as read, respectively, in Article 14.1 and Article 1.23.3., In which the pharmaceutical companies and “all their affiliates ”And subcontractors, in a long list, should be“ deemed exempt ”from any claims, including“ death, physical, emotional or mental injuries, illness, disability ”, loss of assets and income or legal costs.

These conditions are supposed to replicate in other contracts such as, for example, with Pfizer-Biontech. Only, nobody knows. They may be even more favorable to pharmaceutical companies.

RTP also pose the question of the lack of transparency regarding compensation

Something that is also unknown is the compensation demanded by pharmaceutical companies in case of possible non-compliance by the European Commission, a Member State or any other State.

There's also a link to an interesting article in a left wing Argentinian paper ( again you'll need translate ) Leoninas - Brecha . That article suggests:

Handwashing again appears with regard to possible adverse effects after vaccination, as well as the company's legal strategy for not complying with the promised deliveries: although the distribution of doses is weekly, the EU states will not be able to complain if weekly the quantities shipped are below those previously agreed upon. Claims may only be submitted based on Pfizer submission at the end of the quarter, March 31st. If by then the company delivered fewer doses than ordered, there will be several options: Pfizer will be able to return the money corresponding to the missing doses; The parties may terminate the contract, and, only as a last option, the European authorities may request, then yes, that the company be sanctioned.

 

[The39thStep]

Markus Söder, the Bavarian premier and Germany's possible future chancellor, told ZDF television on Friday that it was his impression that the commission "ordered too late, and only bet on a few companies, they agreed on a price in a typically bureaucratic EU procedure and completely underestimated the fundamental importance of the situation".

see my post earlier re the EU procurement strategy , again the absence of a parliament or chamber where MEPS can hold the EU to account means that EU citizens can only do this through there own national government . As the EU mostly curry favour with national govts by giving them key positions for six months this seems unlikely if those politicians want those positions..

 

[mauvais]

I can't say this episode has changed my mind. You can't render a grossly stupid endeavour somehow less stupid just by pointing at some other incompetence. It's only revelatory if you thought the EU was virtuous and competent, and who did?

The UK happened to get one thing right but literally everything else wrong, so anything that suggests we are better off alone - independent from whoever - is built on pretty shaky ground at this point.

 

[steeplejack]

I wouldn't go as far a Banging the Bishop but someone needs to give him a clip round the ear about his understanding of EU history

View attachment 252003

He’s utterly insufferable. Religious obscurantists should have no role whatever in public life.

 

[Pickman's model]

There's been an average of more than a thousand deaths reported each day this month. About half the deaths from air raids and other enemy action in the UK in the whole of the second world war. I think being distracted from our government's shameful actions that have led to this by another organisation's arsery is itself shameful.

 

[Pickman's model]

He’s utterly insufferable. Religious obscurantists should have no role whatever in public life.

Being clipped round the ear?

 

[Anju]

All you posts are worded well Anju, appearance though isn't the problem. Re liability the EU offering AZ partial liability was the reason the price was low

US and UK offer full protection for liability under existing legislation so don't think EU offering less protection would lead to lower price.

 

[andysays]

I don’t get all these posts about sudden realisations about the true nature of the EU after their gargantuan fuckups re the vaccine. I mean, do you also no longer think our government are a bunch of incompetent mendacious clowns just because they seem to have done a decent job on the vaccine rollout?

You can certainly recognise the true nature of the EU while also regarding the UK government as a bunch of incompetent mendacious clowns, and I can't see that anyone here has changed their opinion on the latter recently.

But what's been particularly noticeable to me on this thread are the attempts by some of those still seeking to argue a Remain position to defend the EU in this and still argue that it's the UK government who are in the wrong.

It appears that nothing the EU can do will bring some people to criticize it, which is really quite telling.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

FBPE Twitter currently resembles Stockholm Syndrome victims when the captors start chopping them up to leverage their ransom demands..... delicious

 

[SpookyFrank]

You can certainly recognise the true nature of the EU while also regarding the UK government as a bunch of incompetent mendacious clowns, and I can't see that anyone here has changed their opinion on the latter recently.

But what's been particularly noticeable to me on this thread are the attempts by some of those still seeking to argue a Remain position to defend the EU in this and still argue that it's the UK government who are in the wrong.

It appears that nothing the EU can do will bring some people to criticize it, which is really quite telling.

I haven't seen much in the way of overt support for the EU's actions on here but elsewhere on the internet there's all sorts of deeply embarrassing remainer bootlickery going on. Not that the we told you so stuff from leavers has been much more palatable.

 

[Pickman's model]

I haven't seen much in the way of overt support for the EU's actions on here but elsewhere on the internet there's all sorts of deeply embarrassing remainer bootlickery going on. Not that the we told you so stuff from leavers has been much more palatable.

It's interesting that the ec was not in line with the eu member states, notably not consulting Ireland. I suspect this could cue a period of backtracking by Brussels if other member states are uncomfortable with the commission's behaviour and maybe rebalancing the relationship between them. But it will be interesting to find out if eg Merkel or macron suggested they'd support the action.

 

[SpookyFrank]

It's interesting that the ec was not in line with the eu member states, notably not consulting Ireland. I suspect this could cue a period of backtracking by Brussels if other member states are uncomfortable with the commission's behaviour and maybe rebalancing the relationship between them. But it will be interesting to find out if eg Merkel or macron suggested they'd support the action.

I'd be willing to bet Merkel and Macron were consulted first though, unlike Michael Martin.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I haven't seen much in the way of overt support for the EU's actions on here but elsewhere on the internet there's all sorts of deeply embarrassing remainer bootlickery going on. Not that the we told you so stuff from leavers has been much more palatable.

There has. And it feels, after this week, about as convincing as the EU commissions professed concern for Ireland/the British border in Ireland. There is a pile of shit from the swivel eyed end of the leaver market too it’s true. But, for the softer end of the remain spectrum there is the unmistakable sound of illusions shattering.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I'd be willing to bet Merkel and Macron were consulted first though, unlike Michael Martin.

100%.

 

[Yossarian]

This definitely looks like a massive fuck-up on the part of the EU - if they'd deliberately tried to rally the British people behind their terrible government, they couldn't have done much better.