Should the death penalty be reintroduced in the UK?

[ice-is-forming]

You suit yourself. I know what I saw. I won't tell you no more except there are gradations.

Didn't Newgate close over 100 years ago

 

[wemakeyousoundb]

isn't newgate the Lidl own brand thingies?

 

[isvicthere?]

Absolutely no. Adherents of the death penalty are driven by a desire for vengeance, not justice.

 

[isvicthere?]

It is easy to think that for example that 17 year old that stabbed all those children killing three deserves to be put to death.

Then how about if he wasn't mentally competent?

And how about if we introduced the death penalty to execute people like this, but then some innocent person was executed along with the proper guilty ones?

So, yes the death penalty for those that deserve it, but no because it would be impossible to get it right.

So on balance no.

Also, even if the death penalty were restored, it wouldn´t apply to the Southport killer, who was a minor when he committed his crimes.

 

[isvicthere?]

It's dead simple. If we had the death penalty the Birmingham Six and the Guildford Four would probably all have been hung. This would have helped make the Troubles even more troubling and worked wonders for community cohesion. Just two simple examples. There are loads more.

Check this, from 2011 (I think), for example...

 

[brogdale]

It would remove the possibility of executing people who are innocent.

And leave the insults aside please. You know I always wipe the floor with you on this. Let's keep it civilised.

Setting aside the ludicrous idea that death juries or state death commissions could be infallible, it does not remove the notion that it is wrong to kill.

 

[isvicthere?]

Oh I'm just being a bit poetical. I'm fine. Newgate is long gone.

The last public execution there being on 26th May 1868. Charles Dickens witnessed, and wrote about it.

 

[Aaronf]

Also, even if the death penalty were restored, it wouldn´t apply to the Southport killer, who was a minor when he committed his crimes.

I know it wouldn't happen and for good reason, there has to be some cut off point when legally classed as a minor or an adult but:

He'd been 17 for 356 days and only had 9 days left as a 17 year old, it wouldn't surprise me if he knew that.

 

[savoloysam]

I dont want to get into the debate.I understand why some people are for it.

But my thoughts.

As a deterrant it doesn't work (USA as living proof)

It's not a punishment if you aren't alive to realise it.

I don't believe in state sanctioned killing and putting that decision in the hands of one person. That's before we have gone down the route of false cases of convictions which I am sure has already been done to erm...death on here already

OTH I think lots of sentences should be far harder than they are for the worst of crimes.

 

[Pickman's model]

I know it wouldn't happen and for good reason, there has to be some cut off point when legally classed as a minor or an adult but:

He'd been 17 for 356 days and only had 9 days left as a 17 year old, it wouldn't surprise me if he knew that.

No, I wouldn't be surprised either to find he knew when his birthday was

 

[Spymaster]

Setting aside the ludicrous idea that death juries or state death commissions could be infallible, it does not remove the notion that it is wrong to kill.

Nobody has suggested the former, and the latter is just your opinion; which is wrong in mine.

There are circumstances where there's a moral imperative to kill, such as in some cases of self defence and defence of others.

In a society that frequently releases killers who reoffend there's an argument that CP can be viewed as societal self defence. I disagree with that argument but "it's wrong to kill" is pretty facile.

 

[savoloysam]

Interesting lyrics by The Manic's on this. Nicky Wire says it's pro death sentance but it also appears to make the valid point that the executioners are also killers thus while agreeing with it there is an irony to it.

​

Follow Manic Street Preachers on Bandsintown

"Archives Of Pain"

I wonder who you think you are
You damn well think you're God or something
God give life, God taketh it away, not you
I think you are the Devil itself

If hospitals cure
Then prisons must bring their pain
Don't be ashamed to slaughter
The centre of humanity is cruelty
There is never redemption
Any fool can regret yesterday
Nail it to the House of Lords
You will be buried in the same box as a killer, as a killer, as a killer

A drained white body hangs from the gallows
Is more righteous than Hindley's crotchet lectures
Pain not penance, forget martyrs, remember victims
The weak die young and right now we crouch to make them strong

Kill Yeltsin, who's saying?
Zhirinovsky, Le Pen,
Hindley and Brady, Ireland, Allit, Sutcliffe,
Dahmer, Nielson, Yoshinori Ueda,
Blanche and Pickles, Amin, Milosovic
Give them respect they deserve
Give them the respect they deserve
Give them the respect they deserve
Give them the respect they deserve

Execution needed
A bloody vessel for your peace
If man makes death then death makes man
Tear the torso with horses and chains
Killers view themselves like they view the world, they pick at the holes
Not punish less, rise the pain
Sterilise rapists, all I preach is extinction

Kill Yeltsin, who's saying?
Zhirinovsky, Le Pen,
Hindley and Brady, Ireland, Allit, Sutcliffe,
Dahmer, Nielson, Yoshinori Ueda,
Blanche and Pickles, Amin, Milosovic
Give them respect they deserve
Give them the respect they deserve
Give them the respect they deserve
Give them the respect they d e s e r v e

​

 

[Aaronf]

No, I wouldn't be surprised either to find he knew when his birthday was

I agree

 

[Cloo]

In the end for me the death penalty is just the ultimate in performative cruelty. It doesn't do anything, but it makes some people feel like 'something is being done' .

 

[MrsArcanum]

Those who bizarrely think that the Death Penalty would act as a deterrent, need to take a good look at themselves. Crime is committed in the hope the perpetrator will get away with it and not be caught. The Southport killer would not have been deterred by the death penalty, if anything, some murderers would see the death penalty as a bonus.

No reason on earth to reintroduce state sanctioned murder.

 

[Pickman's model]

I've been thinking more about the executioner role, I'm sure most wouldn't have the character or stomach for it but someone would, like the old phrase "it's a dirty job but someone has to do it". You could analyse it to the nth degree as well around what would it take to do such a role, it would be a legal professional position with high pay? Is that justified enough in thinking it's not the same as someone planning to murder another person just because they're evil or is there no difference in principle?

Never start a post with 'I've been thinking some more' then follow it with vacuous tripe.

 

[VivaE]

When people are being given life with no parole, I think we should have a process whereby they can choose to apply for capital punishment.

Obviously with all the checks and balances ( although the system, so can't trust it really)

They didn't give their victims a choice though. I don't believe those who commit crimes of the nature we're talking about should or deserve to be given a choice as to their fate.

In any case, definite no to the death penalty.

 

[Aaronf]

I've been thinking some more about Newgate after reading up on it, I assume prison conditions have moved on since those times?

 

[Spymaster]

Those who bizarrely think that the Death Penalty would act as a deterrent, need to take a good look at themselves. Crime is committed in the hope the perpetrator will get away with it and not be caught. The Southport killer would not have been deterred by the death penalty, if anything, some murderers would see the death penalty as a bonus.

There are many views for and against deterrence. As you say, CP isn't going to deter people who don't think they'll be caught, and it won't deter people who act impulsively without considering consequences. After abolition in the UK, nothing much happened to the homicide rate but the rate of violent crime skyrocketed. There are potentially other reasons for that, but it's also argued that criminals became emboldened to use extreme violence in the knowledge that they wouldn't hang if they killed someone. If that's the case, CP acted as a deterrent to other crimes. But, whether or not it's any form of deterrent is not the only element, and if it is, it simply bolsters an idea that stands on other merits anyway.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Absolutely no. Adherents of the death penalty are driven by a desire for vengeance, not justice.

Equally, those who want prisoners to suffer many years of misery are driven by a desire for vengeance, not justice.

 

[Aaronf]

It seems like there's no deterrent for some, how do we stop people like this perpetrator wanting to commit the crime he did? Is there just no hope for some people?

Most people even the thought of being in trouble is enough deterrent, the thought of a criminal record or time in prison is enough for others. How do you legislate for or stop someone lime this?

 

[Yossarian]

The government is largely made up of people who I wouldn't trust to wash their hands after taking a shit so no, I don't want to entrust them with the power to decide who should be executed.

With people like Breivik or the New Zealand mosque shooter whose name I have happily forgotten, I don't give a fuck about their lives, I don't think I'd lose any sleep over their executions even if I was the one ordered to carry them out, but if you open the door to giving the worst and most clearly guilty offenders the death penalty, there's going to be room for future governments to expand its use, so I would prefer to keep that door firmly shut.

 

[MrsArcanum]

It seems like there's no deterrent for some, how do we stop people like this perpetrator wanting to commit the crime he did? Is there just no hope for some people?

Most people even the thought of being in trouble is enough deterrent, the thought of a criminal record or time in prison is enough for others. How do you legislate for or stop someone lime this?

A fairer and more equitable society would be a good start to reducing the need to commit crime. Getting back to looking after each other, rather than competing over everything would also be a good move.

As for the deterrent issue, people may think punishment is why some do not commit crimes, rather than those individuals having a solid core of decency in the first place and being aware of their actions on the wider society.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Well, this is just wrong. It doesn't have to be like that at all. If, for example, the burden of proof became beyond all doubt, you have an automatic safeguard against killing innocent people, and you could reinforce that with sentencing juries, independent commissions, etc. It's really not a good argument.

I'm intrigued by this idea of sentencing juries. For this to work you would have to exclude anyone who didn't agree with the death penalty, a sizeable portion of the population, if not the majority. So you've already distorted the independence of the jury by defining who can be a member, giving a greater weight to those who like the idea of capital punishment anyway. Some of whom could well be armchair psychopaths in their own right.

 

[Spymaster]

It seems like there's no deterrent for some, how do we stop people like this perpetrator wanting to commit the crime he did? Is there just no hope for some people?

Most people even the thought of being in trouble is enough deterrent, the thought of a criminal record or time in prison is enough for others. How do you legislate for or stop someone lime this?

Kill them before they do anything wrong.

Speilberg made a documentary about this called Minority Report.

 

[Aaronf]

Kill them before they do anything wrong.

Speilberg made a documentary about this called Minority Report.

I don't think you'd get away with just killing people if they've done nothing wrong. I'm saying how does society or however you describe it/whoever is responsible prevent or try and prevent something like this happening again? Death penalty is no deterrent, life in prison is no deterrent so what can humanity do to make a perpetrator like this sway from wanting to commit the act?

 

[emanymton]

Equally, those who want prisoners to suffer many years of misery are driven by a desire for vengeance, not justice.

Quite, I'm against the death penalty, but I don't think the moral high ground we stand on is nearly as high as some think. Comments like those just reinforce that for me.

If we reframe the question as a quick death or 50 years of suffering, it's hard to call the death penalty barbaric and the other option civilised.

 

[Spymaster]

Equally, those who want prisoners to suffer many years of misery are driven by a desire for vengeance, not justice.

Vengeance is a perfectly acceptable part of justice anyway.

Society says 'we are going to punish you, partly because you deserve it'.

It's why there are different sentences for different crimes.

 

[Spymaster]

I don't think you'd get away with just killing people if they've done nothing wrong.

I was pulling your leg.

 

[Aaronf]

I was pulling your leg.

Oh, okay.