The American mass shooting thread

[dylans]

I'm certainly not trying to claim that the massive civilian ownership of firearms in the US is not a problem. Clearly it is. I just don't think its the only factor.

 

[Manter]

Of course, if the 10 year olds had been armed, they could have defended themselves!!

/nra

That is the sort of crap I have all over my Facebook feed from my more right wing American friends....

 

[Manter]

I am arguing that simply pointing to gun ownership alone is not enough to explain the appalling firearms crime rate in the US. Rather I think it is a combination of unique sociological factors alongside the easy access to weaponry that is at the heart of the problem.

I don't instinctively disagree.... But would be interested to know what you thought those factors were

 

[editor]

I am arguing that simply pointing to gun ownership alone is not enough to explain the appalling firearms crime rate in the US. Rather I think it is a combination of unique sociological factors alongside the easy access to weaponry that is at the heart of the problem.

It's all about the guns. Big guns. Small guns. Ones designed to kill as many people as possible.

I don't see the States as being that different to many other places, but the simple fact remains: if that sick fuck didn't have easy, legal access to as many guns as he wanted, a lot of young children would be alive today.

 

[dylans]

Switzerland also has the third highest suicide rate amongst 15-24 year olds.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_sui_rat_in_age_15_24-suicide-rates-ages-15-24

I'm not sure how this is relevant. If someone is going to kill themselves then they will find a way, gun or not. It is clearly illogical to claim that mere ownership of a gun is more likely to lead to suicide.

This is clearly NOT the case while considering mass shootings. Clearly someone who wants to kill a load of kids is going to find it easier to do with a gun than with a knife.

 

[DJ Squelch]

List of Countries by firearm-related deaths
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

Wikipedia though so I have no idea how reliable the figures are

 

[likesfish]

The USA should be not be in the top 4 of gun murders not being a 3rd world shit hole or involved in an insurgency.
It doesnt really have an excuse.

 

[editor]

I'm not sure how this is relevant. If someone is going to kill themselves then they will find a way, gun or not. It is clearly illogical to claim that mere ownership of a gun is more likely to lead to suicide.

You are quite spectacularly wrong here. Study after study has shown that the availability of guns increases the risk of suicide.

Why might the availability of firearms increase the risk of suicide in the United States? First, many suicidal acts — one third to four fifths of all suicide attempts, according to studies — are impulsive. Among people who made near-lethal suicide attempts, for example, 24% took less than 5 minutes between the decision to kill themselves and the actual attempt, and 70% took less than 1 hour.

Second, many suicidal crises are self-limiting. Such crises are often caused by an immediate stressor, such as the breakup of a romantic relationship, the loss of a job, or a run-in with police. As the acute phase of the crisis passes, so does the urge to attempt suicide. The temporary nature and fleeting sway of many suicidal crises is evident in the fact that more than 90% of people who survive a suicide attempt, including attempts that were expected to be lethal (such as shooting oneself in the head or jumping in front of a train), do not go on to die by suicide. Indeed, recognizing the self-limiting nature of suicidal crises, penal and psychiatric institutions restrict access to lethal means for persons identified as potentially suicidal.

Third, guns are common in the United States (more than one third of U.S. households contain a firearm) and are lethal. A suicide attempt with a firearm rarely affords a second chance. Attempts involving drugs or cutting, which account for more than 90% of all suicidal acts, prove fatal far less often.
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp0805923

Guns are more lethal than other suicide means. They're quick. And they're irreversible.

About 85% of attempts with a firearm are fatal: that's a much higher case fatality rate than for nearly every other method. Many of the most widely used suicide attempt methods have case fatality rates below 5%. (See Case Fatallity Ratio by Method of Self-Harm.)

Attempters who take pills or inhale car exhaust or use razors have some time to reconsider mid-attempt and summon help or be rescued. The method itself often fails, even in the absence of a rescue. Even many of those who use hanging can stop mid-attempt as about half of hanging suicides are partial-suspension (meaning the person can release the pressure if they change their mind) (Bennewith 2005).With a firearm, once the trigger is pulled, there's no turning back.
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/risk/index.html

 

[Blagsta]

I'm not sure how this is relevant. If someone is going to kill themselves then they will find a way, gun or not. It is clearly illogical to claim that mere ownership of a gun is more likely to lead to suicide.

This is clearly NOT the case while considering mass shootings. Clearly someone who wants to kill a load of kids is going to find it easier to do with a gun than with a knife.

Ease of access to thr means to kill oneself is considered a risk factor for suicide. Farmers have a high rate of suicide by gun.

 

[editor]

And another study:

Ready availability of firearms is associated with an increased risk of suicide in the home. Owners of firearms should weigh their reasons for keeping a gun in the home against the possibility that it might someday be used in a suicide. (N Engl J Med 1992;327:467–72.)

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199208133270705

 

[dylans]

I don't instinctively disagree.... But would be interested to know what you thought those factors were

I don't claim to have all the answers but I would have thought things like a difference in the historical and social motivations for owning guns. In somewhere like Switzerland, gun ownership is very much seen as part of ones national duty, part of a militia training regime and part of the national community. In the US, it is part of an individualistic kill or be killed self defence mentality, one where the other is seen as a potential enemy. Historically, gun ownership in the US was restricted to white people, especially after emancipation when part of the mentality was protection against newly freed slaves. On top of this we have the pressures and alienation of modern american life, the isolation of individuals, the death of community etc. and all the insanity that comes with it. Add to this the easy availability of serious weaponry and you have a tragedy waiting to happen

 

[Ax^]

The USA should be not be in the top 4 of gun murders not being a 3rd world shit hole or involved in an insurgency.
It doesnt really have an excuse.

You be surprised by some of the social demographics that exist within that fucked up nation...

 

[weepiper]

Ease of access to thr means to kill oneself is considered a risk factor for suicide. Farmers have a high rate of suicide by gun.

The suicide rate in the UK dropped dramatically when we switched to North Sea Gas.

 

[dylans]

Ease of access to thr means to kill oneself is considered a risk factor for suicide. Farmers have a high rate of suicide by gun.

Farmers have a higher rate of suicide in general. Social isolation, debts, hopelessness etc are all factors. I refuse to believe this rate can simply be explained because they have easier access to guns.

A study in Australia

The suicide rate among male Australian farmers is almost 50 per cent higher than the average in rural communities, according to a study calling for better targetted efforts to treat depression.
Prolonged drought and increasing social isolation are being blamed for new figures showing 34 in every 100,000 male farmers commit suicide, which is significantly up on the 24 per 100,000 among rural men generally.

From the UK

Farmers were twice as likely as their non-agricultural peers to think life was not worth living.
When compared to other people in rural or semi-rural areas farmers were three times as likely to feel this way.
The report also found that one in 10 farmers said they were suffering financial difficulties and 14% said they had debts they could not meet.
A spokesman for the National Farmer's Union (NFU) said the survey accurately reflected the "depths of misery" suffered by farmers.
"There is not a farmer in the country that cannot name at least one friend, associate or colleague from within the industry who has taken his life because of the concerns they have for the future," he said.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2008-11-12/farmers-much-more-likely-to-commit-suicide-report/203854

 

[frogwoman]

I think Dylans is spot on here. Clearly high levels of gun ownership is a problem but it can't be the only reason why mass shootings are so common in the USA. If anything I'd thought it would be a symptom rather than the only cause

 

[dylans]

I think Dylans is spot on here. Clearly high levels of gun ownership is a problem but it can't be the only reason why mass shootings are so common in the USA. If anything I'd thought it would be a symptom rather than the only cause

The problem with these debates is they always become all or nothing. Either guns are the only explanation or guns are not an issue at all. People are shoehorned into one of two brackets. They are either prohibitionists or they are NRA gun nuts.

I don't think it is as binary as that. It is possible to recognise that the proliferation and wide availability of weapons is clearly part of the problem whilst also realising that something else is going on in a society where lunatics are all too often committing these kinds of mass murders

 

[Blagsta]

Farmers have a higher rate of suicide in general. Social isolation, debts, hopelessness etc are all factors. I refuse to believe this rate can simply be explained because they have easier access to guns.

A study in Australia



From the UK




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2008-11-12/farmers-much-more-likely-to-commit-suicide-report/203854

It's a big factor according to my lecturer on my mental health nursing course.

 

[magneze]

Loads of screenshots of just how WRONG the misidentification was.

That's fucked up. Rather unfortunately at the bottom of the website is this unfortunate turn of phrase.

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[Blagsta]

I think Dylans is spot on here. Clearly high levels of gun ownership is a problem but it can't be the only reason why mass shootings are so common in the USA. If anything I'd thought it would be a symptom rather than the only cause

Oh i agree here.

 

[magneze]

The Swiss comparison is a straw man - a totally different system.

Guns are deeply rooted within Swiss culture - but the gun crime rate is so low that statistics are not even kept.
The country has a population of six million, but there are estimated to be at least two million publicly-owned firearms, including about 600,000 automatic rifles and 500,000 pistols.
This is in a very large part due to Switzerland's unique system of national defence, developed over the centuries.
Instead of a standing, full-time army, the country requires every man to undergo some form of military training for a few days or weeks a year throughout most of their lives.
Between the ages of 21 and 32 men serve as frontline troops. They are given an M-57 assault rifle and 24 rounds of ammunition which they are required to keep at home.
Once discharged, men serve in the Swiss equivalent of the US National Guard, but still have to train occasionally and are given bolt rifles. Women do not have to own firearms, but are encouraged to.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/1566715.stm

 

[dylans]

The Swiss comparison is a straw man - a totally different system.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/1566715.stm

I don't see why its a straw man. If the argument is that possession of guns is the only factor in the proliferation of these terrible crimes then it is reasonable to look at other societies where gun ownership is high but these kinds of crimes are rare.

No one is denying that Switzerland has an entirely different system, society, culture, history etc. On the contrary, the fact that Switzerland is a different society lends strength to the argument that there is also something sociological in the US tendency to gun violence.

 

[magneze]

I don't see why its a straw man. If the argument is that possession of guns is the only factor in the proliferation of these terrible crimes then it is reasonable to look at other societies where gun ownership is high but these kinds of crimes are rare.

No one is denying that Switzerland has an entirely different system, society, culture, history etc. On the contrary, the fact that Switzerland is a different society lends strength to the argument that there is also something sociological in the US tendency to gun violence.

Comparing the USA to Switzerland, where gun ownership is mandatory amongst the male population who are trained for a decade as the army is a complete straw man.

There are people all over the world who go a bit mad. Are we saying that Americans are more likely to be violent or more susceptible to mental illness? There seems to be scant evidence for that. The difference is access to weapons that can take out dozens of people in a short space of time.

 

[Manter]

I don't claim to have all the answers but I would have thought things like a difference in the historical and social motivations for owning guns. In somewhere like Switzerland, gun ownership is very much seen as part of ones national duty, part of a militia training regime and part of the national community. In the US, it is part of an individualistic kill or be killed self defence mentality, one where the other is seen as a potential enemy. Historically, gun ownership in the US was restricted to white people, especially after emancipation when part of the mentality was protection against newly freed slaves. On top of this we have the pressures and alienation of modern american life, the isolation of individuals, the death of community etc. and all the insanity that comes with it. Add to this the easy availability of serious weaponry and you have a tragedy waiting to happen

This is where I struggle.... What you are describing there bears no relation to the America I lived in or where I spend about a third of my working life. To take one, community, I see much stronger community in the US than here. Apart from small town life, there seems to be a much stronger network of church or other social based community, it is still normal to know your neighbours, and actively socialise with them, etc. I wonder if the polar opposite os true- with no social safety net, there is strong economic pressure to stay within a community- you can't escape as easily as here, so you are trapped, as a mom conforming member of society, to stay stuck within a sort of pressure cooker. Not sure, but I really don't recognise the great American dystopian cliche that is bandied around Europe

 

[stuff_it]

Comparing the USA to Switzerland, where gun ownership is mandatory amongst the male population who are trained for a decade as the army is a complete straw man.

There are people all over the world who go a bit mad. Are we saying that Americans are more likely to be violent or more susceptible to mental illness? There seems to be scant evidence for that. The difference is access to weapons that can take out dozens of people in a short space of time.

Maybe the lifestyle and pressures of living in the US are greater in other countries, (eg the constant fear about paying for overpriced healthcare or people losing their homes over unfairly charged debts) play a factor in making people crack up that may not have done otherwise. This plus easy access to guns and the cultural factor (think how people are brought up with all that 'you can become anything you want' stuff) means that when the people do crack under the pressure they can easily get hold of some serious fire-power and go berserk.

This is where I struggle.... What you are describing there bears no relation to the America I lived in or where I spend about a third of my working life. To take one, community, I see much stronger community in the US than here. Apart from small town life, there seems to be a much stronger network of church or other social based community, it is still normal to know your neighbours, and actively socialise with them, etc. I wonder if the polar opposite os true- with no social safety net, there is strong economic pressure to stay within a community- you can't escape as easily as here, so you are trapped, as a mom conforming member of society, to stay stuck within a sort of pressure cooker. Not sure, but I really don't recognise the great American dystopian cliche that is bandied around Europe

You've just said that you accept that it can cause pressure on a person though. I think people who are likely to go off plot like this, well it may not matter an awful lot what the pressure is - the fact that it's there can be enough.

 

[ViolentPanda]

What constitutes a gun show?

Imagine a car boot sale for firearms. In some US states, that's how unregulated gun shows are. They're supposed to comply with some minimal federal legislation but the ATF (Federal Bureau for Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms) doesn't have the personnel or the budget to "police" more than a fraction of gun shows across the continental US.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Do you have to keep your firearms in a locked gun cabinet in the states?

Firearms security is a matter for state rather than federal legislation, so it varies from state to state. Anything from unloaded in a locked rack, to loaded and hanging from a nail above the fireplace.

 

[dylanredefined]

What constitutes a gun show?

Imagine a boot sale except with weapons and the odd bit of nazi regalia.

 

[Mrs Magpie]

Not written about this latest gun massacre, but this New Yorker article is as true today as it was then.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/04/23/120423fa_fact_lepore?currentPage=all

 

[ViolentPanda]

someone I was with today made the argument that if the news simply did not report this kind of thing, then we wouldn't keep seeing it so often in recent years. (school shootings in particular)
there may be some truth to this, I thought. But how do you keep it from being reported is another story.

Spree killings happened back in the days before instantaneous news. It's not about publicity IMO, it's about social and psychological forces. it's a lovely facile argument for the media to make, but I'm not sure it holds much more water than "listening to Ozzy Osbourne made my son kill himself" upon investigation.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Imagine a boot sale except with weapons and the odd bit of nazi regalia.

And large hunting knives.