The American mass shooting thread

[spring-peeper]

I wonder what would happen if the media didn't cover this and any other massacre. I wonder if the shooter knew that his name wouldn't be splashed around, would he still do it?

 

[Firky]

Switzerland where people are not only given a semi-automatic assault rifles but are trained how to use it for maximum killing efficiency.

 

[dylans]

Switzerland where people are not only given a semi-automatic assault rifles but are trained how to use it for maximum killing efficiency.

and have the lowest gun violence rate in the world

 

[Bernie Gunther]

So something cultural going on then, as well as availability of guns?

 

[nino_savatte]

Let's not forget the myth of the rugged outdoorsmen.

 

[dylans]

Not quite the lowest in the world (just checked) but pretty much down there.

As of 2007, Switzerland had a population of about 7,600,000. This would put the rate of killings or attempted killings with firearms at about one for every quarter million residents yearly

More people are murdered by stabbing than guns in Switzerland

 

[Citizen66]

why are the massacres always at schools or are they the only ones we get to hear about?

going in armed to the teeth to attack the most vulnerable members of society who clearly won't be armed has to rank as one of the most cowardly acts imaginable.

 

[dylans]

So something cultural going on then, as well as availability of guns?

A combination of sociological factors and easy availability of lots and lots of firearms yeah

 

[spring-peeper]

why are the massacres always at schools or are they the only ones we get to hear about?

going in armed to the teeth to attack the most vulnerable members of society who clearly won't be armed has to rank as one of the most cowardly acts imaginable.

Wasn't there a shooting at a movie theatre? Wasn't there one in a mall where some politician got shot?

The media does its best to give each of the shooter's their 15 minutes of fame.

 

[dylans]

Thing is I don't know what they can do about it legislatively now. Banning firearms will clearly be impossible and futile because the country is already awash with weapons. The number of weapons out there would make a ban pointless and just drive gun ownership underground.

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

why are the massacres always at schools or are they the only ones we get to hear about?

You hear about the office, cinema, McDonalds ones and others. Probably don't have the same impact as little kids aren't involved

 

[Mr.Bishie]

why are the massacres always at schools or are they the only ones we get to hear about?

Densely populated buildings - to kill as many as possible in a short space of time?

 

[Ax^]

why are the massacres always at schools or are they the only ones we get to hear about?

going in armed to the teeth to attack the most vulnerable members of society who clearly won't be armed has to rank as one of the most cowardly acts imaginable.

See that's the problem the gun free zones around school its likes moths to a flame..

 

[_angel_]

I want to agree with this. I want to argue that there is something else going on, a culture of violence, the legacy of global empire coming home, the alienation and isolation of so many, the paranoia which arises from a culture historically armed against its own black population etc. I want to argue this. Ideologically I want to argue that guns don't kill people, people kill people etc etc.I don't discount all these factors and I understand that Finland and Switzerland are heavily armed countries that don't have this almost routine mass gun violence.

I want to argue this but I can't. The overwhelming evidence in front of our eyes demonstrates that its impossible to ignore the simple fact that the US is the most heavily armed nation on Earth by far and that this kind of mass violence is a direct consequence of the easy availability of so many firearms. There are 90 guns for every 100 people in the US. To say that gun ownership in the US is disfunctional, is to barely do justice the scale of the problem and we have to accept that the US is way way past the point where isolated incidents have become a sociological pattern.

Like you say it's gun ownership plus other factors as well. Is US most heavily armed country? Does anyone really know the levels of guns in other war torn places?
I imagine Israel is pretty well armed.

 

[Citizen66]

Wasn't there a shooting at a movie theatre? Wasn't there one in a mall where some politician got shot?

The media does its best to give each of the shooter's their 15 minutes of fame.

so there was. schools are a favourite though.

 

[dylans]

Like you say it's gun ownership plus other factors as well. Is US most heavily armed country? Does anyone really know the levels of guns in other war torn places?
I imagine Israel is pretty well armed.

In terms of civilian ownership numbers the US is first by far with 90 guns per 100 followed by Yemen at 61, Finland at 56 then Switzerland at 46 and Iraq at 39

Israel is slightly different because most Israelis are only armed while in the IDF.(Which almost everyone is in at one point or another) so the distinction between civilian and military ownership is blurred a bit.

The civilian ownership rate is quite low at 7.3 per hundred

 

[likesfish]

Well in a war torn state a healthy 20 year old would find himself with rather more problems than a seething hatred of mummy

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Like you say it's gun ownership plus other factors as well. Is US most heavily armed country? Does anyone really know the levels of guns in other war torn places?
I imagine Israel is pretty well armed.

Thailand, Colombia & South Africa having the highest rates of gun related deaths. I don't know how that equates to gun ownership per person.

 

[wiskey]

A couple of years ago the lockdown sounded, it was terrifying. Sitting in a classroom with no idea of what was going on, trying to keep the kids calm, not knowing how long we would be in lockdown for, it was awful. Turned out to be OK (kid claimed there was someone outside the school with a shotgun or a rifle) but I hope I never have to go through that again.

Since getting higher in my job I've got a greater understanding of lone shooter/sniper event procedures in this country and it scares me a lot . . . that sounds really traumatic

 

[dylans]

Thailand, Colombia & South Africa having the highest rates of gun related deaths. I don't know how that equates to gun ownership per person.

I can answer that I think. Thailand has 16 guns per 100. Columbia has 7 and South Africa has 13.

 

[Firky]

I had Raul Moat knocking around my manor but he was just after coppers. I wasn't scared at the time,mostly annoyed!

 

[editor]

and have the lowest gun violence rate in the world

Except they don't - not even close - no matter how many times gun nuts trot out this particular line bit of disinformation.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list

 

[editor]

Is US most heavily armed country?

Oh yes:

With less than 5% of the world's population, the United States is home to roughly 35–50 per cent of the world's civilian-owned guns, heavily skewing the global geography of firearms and any relative comparison
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list

 

[dylans]

Except they don't - not even close - no matter how many times gun nuts trot out this particular line bit of disinformation.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list

Yeah I know. I checked and posted a correction above. It is still very low though considering the percentage of civilian guns owned

You don't need to be a gun nut to recognise that something else is going on in the US besides too many guns. As I said above, I think it is a combination of sociological factors combined with too many guns.

 

[editor]

Yeah I know. I checked and posted a correction above. It is still very low though

It's not particularly low at all. In fact, they have one of the highest amounts in the world for murders with firearms, ranked at #23.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-crime-murders-with-firearms

 

[editor]

Switzerland also has the third highest suicide rate amongst 15-24 year olds.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_sui_rat_in_age_15_24-suicide-rates-ages-15-24

 

[dylans]

It's not particularly low at all. In fact, they have one of the highest amounts in the world for murders with firearms, ranked at #23.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-crime-murders-with-firearms

One for every quarter million people. Less gun murders than knife murders. Perhaps they should ban knives.

Police statistics for the year 2006[12] records 34 killings or attempted killings involving firearms, compared to 69 cases involving bladed weapons and 16 cases of unarmed assault. Cases of assault resulting in bodily harm numbered 89 (firearms) and 526 (bladed weapons).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland#Gun_crime

 

[editor]

One for every quarter million people. Less gun murders than knife murders. Perhaps they should ban knives.

So exactly what are you trying to argue here? I see nothing good about Switzerland's gun laws.

Here’s one record the Swiss may not be so enthusiastic about holding: more suicides are committed here using guns per capita than anywhere else in Europe.

The issues of gun suicide and Switzerland’s high rate of weapon ownership came under the spotlight again in January. The police chief overseeing security at the annual meeting of the World Economic Forum in Davos turned his service revolver against himself a day before the event began.

His case is hardly unique. From 1996 to 2005, 3,410 suicides, or between 24 and 28 per cent of all those in Switzerland, were committed using firearms.

That percentage trails the United States, it is true, where 57 per cent of suicides involve a gun. But few European countries come anywhere near Switzerland.

And of other English-speaking countries, the highest rate is in Canada, where 19 per cent of suicides were by firearm in 2000. In England and Wales the figure stands at 2.8 per cent, and in Scotland at 1.8 per cent.

Guns are highly efficient: experts say that 90 per cent of suicide attempts involving firearms are successful.

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/special..._troubling_record_of_suicide.html?cid=8301804

 

[Ax^]

Pfft you not being logical at all dylans


Its more guns that are needed to combat knife crime

 

[dylans]

So exactly what are you trying to argue here? I see nothing good about Switzerland's gun laws.

I am arguing that simply pointing to gun ownership alone is not enough to explain the appalling firearms crime rate in the US. Rather I think it is a combination of unique sociological factors alongside the easy access to weaponry that is at the heart of the problem.