The American mass shooting thread

[Yossarian]

If it was this guy's job to stop a shooter in the case of something like this, I don't see what's wrong with pointing it out if he didn't do it. If the actual cops came round and hung round outside the building I'm sure people would point that out too.

In both cases, the shooting could have been averted by the nutter not having a gun, of course, so I'm not sure how it makes the gun-lovers much capital by blaming this guy.

The gun-lovers are focusing on him because their whole argument is that "good guys with guns" are the best way to prevent shootings - in this case, they're saying it happened because the guy with the gun wasn't good enough. If he'd been shot dead, they'd probably argue it was because his gun wasn't big enough.

 

[YouSir]

If it was this guy's job to stop a shooter in the case of something like this, I don't see what's wrong with pointing it out if he didn't do it. If the actual cops came round and hung round outside the building I'm sure people would point that out too.

In both cases, the shooting could have been averted by the nutter not having a gun, of course, so I'm not sure how it makes the gun-lovers much capital by blaming this 'guy.

'He didn't do anything' isn't armchair observers shouting 'He's a goddamn coward!' though. Maybe he was inept, maybe he was a coward, or maybe he should never have been doing the job in the first place, had no real plan on how to react and tried to just not do any more damage. Is there any actual evidence either way? You can say more about first responder cops, they should at least be expected to have a plan of action and the force to carry it out.

 

[8ball]

The gun-lovers are focusing on him because their whole argument is that "good guys with guns" are the best way to prevent shootings - in this case, they're saying it happened because the guy with the gun wasn't good enough. If he'd been shot dead, they'd probably argue it was because his gun wasn't big enough.

It would seem you need exceptionally good guys with very high levels of training and a good deal of firepower to really handle this kind of situation. I wonder if that is what Trump is likely to sign off on the budget for...

This case also casts doubt on the idea that having someone around with a gun is an effective deterrent.

 

[agricola]

Aaron Feis, football coach who shielded students from Florida shooter, died 'a hero' - CNN well since unarmed people did something an armed experinced law enforcement officer did nothing except stay out of the line of fire

... and if this cop had been confronted by Cruz as he was doing the shooting (as happened to Feis when he threw himself over some students), then you would have a point.

 

[agricola]

It would seem you need exceptionally good guys with very high levels of training and a good deal of firepower to really handle this kind of situation. I wonder if that is what Trump is likely to sign off on the budget for...

I am not sure that you do; you just need someone to be lucky enough, focused enough and quick enough to go in and stop the person whilst they are mowing other people down.

No-one should pretend that doing that doesnt require an awful lot of guts and doesn't pose significant risk in and of itself however, especially as it relies on the shooter being alone, easily identifiable and distracted to work and takes the first responder away from doing things that might lessen the carnage.

 

[dylanredefined]

'He didn't do anything' isn't armchair observers shouting 'He's a goddamn coward!' though. Maybe he was inept, maybe he was a coward, or maybe he should never have been doing the job in the first place, had no real plan on how to react and tried to just not do any more damage. Is there any actual evidence either way? You can say more about first responder cops, they should at least be expected to have a plan of action and the force to carry it out.

School shootings aren't a new phenomena the idea he didn't know what to do is ludicrous.

 

[dylanredefined]

I am not sure that you do; you just need someone to be lucky enough, focused enough and quick enough to go in and stop the person whilst they are mowing other people down.

No-one should pretend that doing that doesnt require an awful lot of guts and doesn't pose significant risk in and of itself however, especially as it relies on the shooter being alone, easily identifiable and distracted to work and takes the first responder away from doing things that might lessen the carnage.

Such as tweeting about it? Shooting at him or at least at him would be the best thing to lessen the carnage. At best you stop the carnage at worst you die instead of some student.

 

[YouSir]

School shootings aren't a new phenomena the idea he didn't know what to do is ludicrous.

Hell, murder's been around since the dawn of time - that's why whenever it happens people are so level headed and in control.

 

[YouSir]

Such as tweeting about it? Shooting at him or at least at him would be the best thing to lessen the carnage. At best you stop the carnage at worst you die instead of some student.

At worst you shoot the wrong person, unless you're shooting with absolute certainty. Collateral damage though, all part of life for good guys with guns.

 

[scifisam]

If it was this guy's job to stop a shooter in the case of something like this, I don't see what's wrong with pointing it out if he didn't do it. If the actual cops came round and hung round outside the building I'm sure people would point that out too.

In both cases, the shooting could have been averted by the nutter not having a gun, of course, so I'm not sure how it makes the gun-lovers much capital by blaming this guy.

Pointing out that he didn't kill the shooter is just a statement of fact. But people are saying he didn't do it because he was a coward. We don't have enough info to know that yet. Plus actual cops did come and just hang around the building and people have pointed that out.

 

[agricola]

Such as tweeting about it? Shooting at him or at least at him would be the best thing to lessen the carnage. At best you stop the carnage at worst you die instead of some student.

"At worst you shoot a student", you mean.

 

[8ball]

I am not sure that you do; you just need someone to be lucky enough, focused enough and quick enough to go in and stop the person whilst they are mowing other people down.

No-one should pretend that doing that doesnt require an awful lot of guts and doesn't pose significant risk in and of itself however, especially as it relies on the shooter being alone, easily identifiable and distracted to work and takes the first responder away from doing things that might lessen the carnage.

The firepower disparity is massive in itself if someone just has a pistol. And a retired cop isn't going to be psychologically prepared for something more similar to a warzone. You do get the occasional "bad guy with gun taken down by good guy with gun" scenario, but they're extremely rare (the NRA like to shout about them as much as possible to give the impression more guns is the answer). Even rarer when weaponry is highly mismatched.

Yeah, you'd have to be very gutsy, very focused and very lucky.

With these new proposals about bonuses for teachers who carry concealed weapon, I suspect a likely shooter might well know which teachers are likely to be carrying and plan accordingly.

 

[dylanredefined]

At worst you shoot the wrong person, unless you're shooting with absolute certainty. Collateral damage though, all part of life for good guys with guns.

Well unless the school is full of black students should be pretty easy to work out who to shoot.

 

[8ball]

"At worst you shoot a student", you mean.

I guess if a SWAT team had turned up you'd rather let the shooter carry on than let them risk shooting a student?

 

[YouSir]

I guess if a SWAT team had turned up you'd rather let the shooter carry on than let them risk shooting a student?

Briefed and highly trained SWAT team vs solitary, semi-retired school guard...

 

[binka]

Plus actual cops did come and just hang around the building and people have pointed that out.

The one we're talking about was an actual cop

 

[8ball]

Briefed and highly trained SWAT team vs solitary, semi-retired school guard...

Right, so it's the level of training and briefing that's your concern here?

 

[YouSir]

Right, so it's the level of training and briefing that's your concern here?

I've got a list of concerns as long as the continental United States when it comes to anything involving gun crime in the US, but aye, in this instance - the discussion of whether the man was a coward or not - I think training and awareness of the situation are valid concerns.

 

[agricola]

I guess if a SWAT team had turned up you'd rather let the shooter carry on than let them risk shooting a student?

That is not what I said, I was just pointing out that the worst case scenario is a bit worse than what dylanredefined said it was.

 

[binka]

Briefed and highly trained SWAT team vs solitary, semi-retired school guard...

He's a 54 year old full time cop, not a semi-retired school guard earning minimum wage.

 

[8ball]

That is not what I said, I was just pointing out that the worst case scenario is a bit worse than what dylanredefined said it was.

Fair point. Though if I was hiding under one of those tables when the guy was stalking round with that rifle, I'd have felt a lot better if he'd been on the scene, regardless of risk of getting hit by him.

 

[dylanredefined]

That is not what I said, I was just pointing out that the worst case scenario is a bit worse than what dylanredefined said it was.

Not really as if you don't go the student gets shot anyway.

 

[scifisam]

The one we're talking about was an actual cop

Didn't you see the post I was responding to? 'Actual cop' was a direct quote. Anyway, the school guard was a retired cop, not quite the same thing.

 

[YouSir]

He's a 54 year old full time cop, not a semi-retired school guard earning minimum wage.

So's the guy stopping people for speeding, or busting teenagers with weed in the suburbs - being a cop doesn't mean anything with regard to ability or current training. He's no more interchangeable with someone on a SWAT team than any of the (many) armed security guards are in the US. The only similarity is that they all get given weapons which - apparently - is enough to John McClain it in the eyes of some.

 

[binka]

Didn't you see the post I was responding to? 'Actual cop' was a direct quote. Anyway, the school guard was a retired cop, not quite the same thing.

Please see my subsequent post. As far as I've read he was not a retired cop and is 54 so hardly decrepit

 

[binka]

So's the guy stopping people for speeding, or busting teenagers with weed in the suburbs - being a cop doesn't mean anything with regard to ability or current training. He's no more interchangeable with someone on a SWAT team than any of the (many) armed security guards are in the US. The only similarity is that they all get given weapons which - apparently - is enough to John McClain it in the eyes of some.

I was just pointing out the factual mistakes you had made.

 

[agricola]

Didn't you see the post I was responding to? 'Actual cop' was a direct quote. Anyway, the school guard was a retired cop, not quite the same thing.

He wasn't a retired cop, though he had done 33 years and had been the Schools officer for the last eight and a bit years of his service (from here).

 

[agricola]

Not really as if you don't go the student gets shot anyway.

and it would be better if you shot them rather than the bad guy, right?

 

[binka]

and it would be better if you shot them rather than the bad guy, right?

That's really disingenuous

 

[YouSir]

I was just pointing out the factual mistakes you had made.

I said 'semi-retired', not retired, I'm guessing school guard isn't where they're putting the up and coming young cops these days.