The American mass shooting thread

[CRI]

And this kid, who held a door open to help others escape, but didn't survive.

Peter Wang, Florida school shooting victim: Brave teen seen holding door open for others during shooting

The more I think about it, the more I think the only way things will change is if the law is reversed, making it possible for anyone who makes or sells a firearm, at any stage of the process, to be open to legal action for their culpability, with massive fines. Then, multiple suits to make it no longer economically viable to make or sell guns in the US. It wouldn't eliminate the ones in circulation already - other measures would be needed for that, like making licenses mandatory and costing something like $5000 for each weapon, something like that. Got to start somewhere.

 

[Spymaster]

The more I think about it, the more I think the only way things will change is if the law is reversed, making it possible for anyone who makes or sells a firearm, at any stage of the process, to be open to legal action for their culpability, with massive fines. Then, multiple suits to make it no longer economically viable to make or sell guns in the US. It wouldn't eliminate the ones in circulation already - other measures would be needed for that, like making licenses mandatory and costing something like $5000 for each weapon, something like that. Got to start somewhere.

If that's what you want you may as well forget it because it'll never happen in the US in one hit. You may as well campaign for a visit from the tooth fairy.

Proper licensing, genuine background checks, and serious restrictions on the sale of automatic firearms is where to start. It'll make little difference initially in a country where there are already millions of these weapons in private hands so any government serious about the problem would need to initiate a buy-back program to encourage owners to hand the guns in and be paid their value. And pigs might fly.

 

[Pickman's model]

And this kid, who held a door open to help others escape, but didn't survive.

Peter Wang, Florida school shooting victim: Brave teen seen holding door open for others during shooting

The more I think about it, the more I think the only way things will change is if the law is reversed, making it possible for anyone who makes or sells a firearm, at any stage of the process, to be open to legal action for their culpability, with massive fines. Then, multiple suits to make it no longer economically viable to make or sell guns in the US. It wouldn't eliminate the ones in circulation already - other measures would be needed for that, like making licenses mandatory and costing something like $5000 for each weapon, something like that. Got to start somewhere.

i suspect you'll find your scheme falls foul of the constitution

there would be no swifter way to ensure the growth of the nra than to try what you propose.

 

[gosub]

So you don’t believe him. I’m possibly with you there given his history.

But if it’s true it’s worth exploring, no?

The availability of firearms in the US is only one factor isn’t it? There’s certainly a discussion to be had regarding what motivates a kid to pick up the assault rifle and murder his schoolmates. It doesn’t happen anywhere else with anything approaching the same frequency.

ABSOLUTELY but i'd rather he didn't dictate the narrative

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...o-more-discrimination/?utm_term=.80fa2394f4e4

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...id-something-about-it/?utm_term=.5fbe6279eeaf

 

[CRI]

i suspect you'll find your scheme falls foul of the constitution

there would be no swifter way to ensure the growth of the nra than to try what you propose.

How? Please explain.

 

[CRI]

ABSOLUTELY but i'd rather he didn't dictate the narrative

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...o-more-discrimination/?utm_term=.80fa2394f4e4

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...id-something-about-it/?utm_term=.5fbe6279eeaf

Those who want no form of gun control are pushing the narrative that mass shootings are not preventable because they are carried out by people who are mentally "unstable" and shit happens. But that doesn't hold water because in other countries, like Canada, with similar rates of mental illness, mass shootings rarely happen. The same folks are reluctant to attach any political motivation to shooters, either, unless they are Muslim.

 

[not-bono-ever]

 

[squirrelp]

I was expecting quite a lot of humble backtracking after I posted this video last night. But, no.

Did you people not watch it?

I have done nothing but make a similar point to Michael Moore himself on the nature of school mass shootings. Of course when I started I didn't know I had Michael Moore on my side.

Do you guys REALLY want to keep insisting that there is no issue with pharma meds and mass shootings?

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Fuck. Off.

 

[Pickman's model]

How? Please explain.

it would imo (and i suspect in the relevant opinions of others too) tend to abridge the right to bear arms on the basis of making the acquisition of arms more onerous.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

View attachment 127812

This is complete nonsense. We've had an ongoing controversy about what to do with a white supremacist who has advocated violence on the campus at the University of Nebraska. Yet, the administration and the police say there's nothing they can do, until he actually does something violent:

The University of Nebraska-Lincoln (UNL) receives messages and phones calls about Daniel Kleve all the time these days. The 23-year-old undergraduate biochemistry major is a white supremacist who is overtly racist and dangerous, his classmates say. They don’t want to share classes with him, they don’t want to bump into him in a dining hall—they don’t want to see the tawny-haired man on campus ever again. ....

Kleve, who is fond of posting selfies with guns to social media, also said that “now is not the right time” for violence, and he has argued that the edited video took his words out of context—but the language spoke for itself to students who were already concerned about him and his demonstrable connections to neo-Nazi groups. Hundreds of students demanding Kleve’s expulsion gathered on campus grounds to stage a protest on Wednesday of last week, adding a physical presence to what was already a sustained campaign of activism.

"Violent" Nebraska white supremacist poses unique challenges to campus free speech | Analysis

The options for what can be done after someone is reported can be really limited. The emphasis is on maintaining that individual's freedom, often at the expense of everyone else. There's just no legal framework in place to throw a net over someone, no matter how fucked up they are, before there is violence. And the response of our lawmakers has been to punish university professors for opposing this, and to tighten up laws protecting people like Kleve.

 

[Cloo]

I just cannot see (well, other than the NRA bitching) why they can't fucking ban semi-automatics straight off. There can be no good reason for an individual to own something like that.

 

[Spymaster]

I just cannot see (well, other than the NRA bitching) why they can't fucking ban semi-automatics straight off. There can be no good reason for an individual to own something like that.

Well you could say the same about pretty much any firearm. Semis aren't even banned in the UK for FAC holders (only permitted in .22 though).

The reason most shooters want them is for sport and recreational shooting. In the US they have competitions for different types of guns/ammo, etc, and the majority use them safely without any issues. They are the people who are going to say their rights are being taken away.

 

[Saul Goodman]

I don't believe there was anything like the rate of such school shootings, if any, prior to SSRI medications.

I don't believe there were any school shootings prior to guns!
I don't believe there were many school shootings prior to the invention of Rubik's cube!

Fuck off!

 

[Saul Goodman]

Well you could say the same about pretty much any firearm. Semis aren't even banned in the UK for FAC holders (only permitted in .22 though).

The reason most shooters want them is for sport and recreational shooting. In the US they have competitions for different types of guns/ammo, etc, and the majority use them safely without any issues. They are the people who are going to say their rights are being taken away.

The majority of people are always penalised when a small minority take the piss. It's always the way and always will be but as a society we accept it, because we believe it's for the best.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Why is he getting this level of vitriol? Is it really that controversial to suggest that people who shoot up schoolkids may have mental health issues?

I don’t think he’s saying the drugs caused the shootings is he?

That's exactly what he's suggesting. He's saying school shootings didn't happen before SSRIs. It's an utter bullshit argument, and a dangerous one.

 

[squirrelp]

I don't believe there were any school shootings prior to guns!
I don't believe there were many school shootings prior to the invention of Rubik's cube!

Fuck off!

The attitude here now really just is one of denial.

Does anyone have a comment to make re: Michael Moore?

 

[mojo pixy]

The attitude here now really just is one of denial.

Not to mention the deflections, cherry-picking, cart-before-horse-ism, and general avoidance of answering reasonable questions.

Does anyone have a comment to make re: Michael Moore?

He's quite fat.

Also he seems to be making the same mistake as you wrt correlation not equalling causation.

 

[gosub]

Those who want no form of gun control are pushing the narrative that mass shootings are not preventable because they are carried out by people who are mentally "unstable" and shit happens. But that doesn't hold water because in other countries, like Canada, with similar rates of mental illness, mass shootings rarely happen. The same folks are reluctant to attach any political motivation to shooters, either, unless they are Muslim.

If you'd read the articles : not only will that lead to further stigmatisation of the mentally ill but also WP saying it might be tied to inadequte healthcare provision in the US, the exact opposite squarrelnumpty (they can't both be right and I know who I think's right) Squirrrelnumpty et al are going to have to try A LOT harder with their lists if they want me to buy the idea its down to the meds...It's clearly not ALL mass shootings, and you have case effect link with mental insatbility...but with that 1in6 on meds figure I'd want to see say half the mass shootings by people on meds before I'd entertain the idea. But then I'd probably also look carefully at med use of those 22,000 suicides gunviolencearchive blythey ignores.


This is all areas of research Congress won't entertain funding research into.

 

[squirrelp]

Also he seems to be making the same mistake as you wrt correlation not equalling causation.

On what basis are you certain that the (striking) correlation is not causative?

 

[Pickman's model]

On what basis are you certain that the (striking) correlation is not causative?

 

[squirrelp]

Squirrrelnumpty et al are going to have to try A LOT harder with their lists if they want me to buy the idea its down to the meds...It's clearly not ALL mass shootings, and you have case effect link with mental insatbility...but with that 1in6 on meds figure I'd want to see say half the mass shootings by people on meds before I'd entertain the idea.

I don't know what more evidence you would wish for. All the school shootings are committed by people are all on meds.

 

[Pickman's model]

what's your point squirrelp?

 

[squirrelp]

View attachment 127825

You cannot have causation without correlation, fool.

 

[mojo pixy]

On what basis are you certain that the (striking) correlation is not causative?

I reckon I'm less certain of my opinion than you are
but
what certainty I may feel is no doubt felt on the same basis whereby you (seem to) think the correlation between meds and murders is both striking and causative.

ie. nothing really, I just reckon it. Let's say. What about you? Got more than a hunch?

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

On what basis are you certain that the (striking) correlation is not causative?

You are making one of the classic logical mistakes:

Post hoc ergo propter hoc: This is a conclusion that assumes that if 'A' occurred after 'B' then 'B' must have caused 'A.' Example:

I drank bottled water and now I am sick, so the water must have made me sick.

In this example, the author assumes that if one event chronologically follows another the first event must have caused the second. But the illness could have been caused by the burrito the night before, a flu bug that had been working on the body for days, or a chemical spill across campus. There is no reason, without more evidence, to assume the water caused the person to be sick.

Purdue OWL: Logic in Argumentative Writing

 

[Pickman's model]

You cannot have causation without correlation, fool.

yes you can you stupid stupid shit.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Does anyone have a comment to make re: Michael Moore?

He's well known for using information in deliberately misleading and disingenuous way?

 

[Pickman's model]

I reckon I'm less certain of my opinion than you are
but
what certainty I may feel is no doubt felt on the same basis whereby you (seem to) think the correlation between meds and murders is both striking and causative.

ie. nothing really, I just reckon it. Let's say. What about you? Got more than a hunch?

more than a hunch, he has a legion of loons to support him

 

[squirrelp]

yes you can you stupid stupid shit.

Example please.