The American mass shooting thread

[not-bono-ever]

too much information/

 

[xenon]

alluding to the idea that the medication makes them do it..

I know. And that is where the questions stop. Not asking why a society need so much medication. Not asking about the people medicated to the eyeballs who don’t kill or harm anyone. Pharmaceuticals bad; arms industries good.

 

[Ax^]

i'd not let either groups effect an election if i could, Alas

 

[DotCommunist]

I tend to think that depression and nearly actionable levels of anxiety in wide sections of society is down to the fact that we are living in the dystopia nobody ever warned you about- they never told you how fucking banal it would be. Cheers, Alduous and George. You made it sound more exciting than it is. But thats usually the depression talking and while I can't speak to wonderful outcomes from head meds they do stop me swinging from way up to way down.

I don't buy that their usage drives the phenomena of mass shooters, thats nonsense on stilts. And surely its looking at it wrong 'shooters are likely to have been fobbed off with a course of ssri's' doesn't somehow equal the pills being a main factor does it. No its bollocks.

 

[mojo pixy]

squirrelp has it actually occurred to you that if there are links between taking certain medications and going on murder sprees, the links may be less about the meds causing the murders, and more that the same psychosis driving someone to believe killing their classmates is a good idea, might be the same psychosis the meds have been prescribed for in the first place? Or is that a bit too complicated?

 

[Saul Goodman]

squirrelp has it actually occurred to you that if there are links between taking certain medications and going on murder sprees, the links may be less about the meds causing the murders, and more that the same psychosis driving someone to believe killing their classmates is a good idea, might be the same psychosis the meds have been prescribed for in the first place? Or is that a bit too complicated?

He knows you're right but he'll just spew more c&p shite from one of his conspiraloon websites.
It's easier to just tell him to fuck off than try to reason with him.

 

[mojo pixy]

That's probably true, but I need to work through a process before I can in all conscience cunt someone off. I like to do it at each engagement as well, it just helps me maintain some sense of fair play. It's like, just checking.

 

[Favelado]

Don't get me wrong. You can't commit a mass shooting with prozac and no gun. That is quite obvious. Remove the guns and you remove the shooting. But it's worth noting that Canada has massive gun ownership but little gun crime.

The US has a three times higher rate of gun ownership than Canada, yet SSRIs are prescribed freely in both countries. It's a combination of gun culture and the US's societal ills causing this and your very own argument above lends weight to that.

 

[MrSpikey]

If you wish to provide counterexamples - school shooters who were known not to be taking any psychiatric meds: I don't think you will find a single example.

The very first example on the list you provided as "evidence" includes Dylan Klebold. The list made no claim that Klebold was taking psychiatric meds.

 

[gosub]

Here is a list: apologies for the C&P, but it was very much requested

• Eric Harris age 17 (first on Zoloft then Luvox) and Dylan Klebold aged 18 (Columbine school shooting in Littleton, Colorado), killed 12 students and 1 teacher, and wounded 23 others, before killing themselves. Klebold’s medical records have never been made available to the public.
• Jeff Weise, age 16, had been prescribed 60 mg/day of Prozac (three times the average starting dose for adults!) when he shot his grandfather, his grandfather’s girlfriend and many fellow students at Red Lake, Minnesota. He then shot himself. 10 dead, 12 wounded.
• Cory Baadsgaard, age 16, Wahluke (Washington state) High School, was on Paxil (which caused him to have hallucinations) when he took a rifle to his high school and held 23 classmates hostage. He has no memory of the event.
• Chris Fetters, age 13, killed his favorite aunt while taking Prozac.
• Christopher Pittman, age 12, murdered both his grandparents while taking Zoloft.
• Mathew Miller, age 13, hung himself in his bedroom closet after taking Zoloft for 6 days.
• Kip Kinkel, age 15, (on Prozac and Ritalin) shot his parents while they slept then went to school and opened fire killing 2 classmates and injuring 22 shortly after beginning Prozac treatment.
• Luke Woodham, age 16 (Prozac) killed his mother and then killed two students, wounding six others.
• A boy in Pocatello, ID (Zoloft) in 1998 had a Zoloft-induced seizure that caused an armed stand off at his school.
• Michael Carneal (Ritalin), age 14, opened fire on students at a high school prayer meeting in West Paducah, Kentucky. Three teenagers were killed, five others were wounded..
• A young man in Huntsville, Alabama (Ritalin) went psychotic chopping up his parents with an ax and also killing one sibling and almost murdering another.
• Andrew Golden, age 11, (Ritalin) and Mitchell Johnson, aged 14, (Ritalin) shot 15 people, killing four students, one teacher, and wounding 10 others.
• TJ Solomon, age 15, (Ritalin) high school student in Conyers, Georgia opened fire on and wounded six of his class mates.
• Rod Mathews, age 14, (Ritalin) beat a classmate to death with a bat.
• James Wilson, age 19, (various psychiatric drugs) from Breenwood, South Carolina, took a .22 caliber revolver into an elementary school killing two young girls, and wounding seven other children and two teachers.
• Elizabeth Bush, age 13, (Paxil) was responsible for a school shooting in Pennsylvania
• Jason Hoffman (Effexor and Celexa) – school shooting in El Cajon, California
• Jarred Viktor, age 15, (Paxil), after five days on Paxil he stabbed his grandmother 61 times.
• Chris Shanahan, age 15 (Paxil) in Rigby, ID who out of the blue killed a woman.
• Jeff Franklin (Prozac and Ritalin), Huntsville, AL, killed his parents as they came home from work using a sledge hammer, hatchet, butcher knife and mechanic’s file, then attacked his younger brothers and sister.
• Neal Furrow (Prozac) in LA Jewish school shooting reported to have been court-ordered to be on Prozac along with several other medications.
• Kevin Rider, age 14, was withdrawing from Prozac when he died from a gunshot wound to his head. Initially it was ruled a suicide, but two years later, the investigation into his death was opened as a possible homicide. The prime suspect, also age 14, had been taking Zoloft and other SSRI antidepressants.
• Alex Kim, age 13, hung himself shortly after his Lexapro prescription had been doubled.
• Diane Routhier was prescribed Welbutrin for gallstone problems. Six days later, after suffering many adverse effects of the drug, she shot herself.
• Billy Willkomm, an accomplished wrestler and a University of Florida student, was prescribed Prozac at the age of 17. His family found him dead of suicide – hanging from a tall ladder at the family’s Gulf Shore Boulevard home in July 2002.
• Kara Jaye Anne Fuller-Otter, age 12, was on Paxil when she hung herself from a hook in her closet. Kara’s parents said “…. the damn doctor wouldn’t take her off it and I asked him to when we went in on the second visit. I told him I thought she was having some sort of reaction to Paxil…”)
• Gareth Christian, Vancouver, age 18, was on Paxil when he committed suicide in 2002, (Gareth’s father could not accept his son’s death and killed himself.)
• Julie Woodward, age 17, was on Zoloft when she hung herself in her family’s detached garage.
• Matthew Miller was 13 when he saw a psychiatrist because he was having difficulty at school. The psychiatrist gave him samples of Zoloft. Seven days later his mother found him dead, hanging by a belt from a laundry hook in his closet.
• Kurt Danysh, age 18, and on Prozac, killed his father with a shotgun. He is now behind prison bars, and writes letters, trying to warn the world that SSRI drugs can kill.
• Woody __, age 37, committed suicide while in his 5th week of taking Zoloft. Shortly before his death his physician suggested doubling the dose of the drug. He had seen his physician only for insomnia. He had never been depressed, nor did he have any history of any mental illness symptoms.
• A boy from Houston, age 10, shot and killed his father after his Prozac dosage was increased.
• Hammad Memon, age 15, shot and killed a fellow middle school student. He had been diagnosed with ADHD and depression and was taking Zoloft and “other drugs for the conditions.”
• Matti Saari, a 22-year-old culinary student, shot and killed 9 students and a teacher, and wounded another student, before killing himself. Saari was taking an SSRI and a benzodiazapine.
• Steven Kazmierczak, age 27, shot and killed five people and wounded 21 others before killing himself in a Northern Illinois University auditorium. According to his girlfriend, he had recently been taking Prozac, Xanax and Ambien. Toxicology results showed that he still had trace amounts of Xanax in his system.
• Finnish gunman Pekka-Eric Auvinen, age 18, had been taking antidepressants before he killed eight people and wounded a dozen more at Jokela High School – then he committed suicide.
• Asa Coon from Cleveland, age 14, shot and wounded four before taking his own life. Court records show Coon was on Trazodone.
• Jon Romano, age 16, on medication for depression, fired a shotgun at a teacher in his New York high school.

Every mass shooting over last 20 years has one thing in common (and it isn’t guns)

That list isn't even 300 long which would just about cover JUST ONE YEAR'S WORTH OF US mass shootings and it includes lone suicides and single shootings... from a number of years.


What is it 1 in 3 will suffer mental illness at some stage... With mass shootings as high as they if that's all the mental illness attributables you can come up with then at best it's a normal distribution

 

[editor]

Here is a list: apologies for the C&P, but it was very much requested

Read this and hit your stupid, ignorant head against a wall repeatedly: The American mass shooting thread

 

[squirrelp]

The very first example on the list you provided as "evidence" includes Dylan Klebold. The list made no claim that Klebold was taking psychiatric meds.

It's nice to know that someone was actually paying attention to the detail. You are referring to the Columbine massacre.

Shooter Eric Harris was taking the antidepressant Luvox at the time he and Dylan Klebold opened fire at Columbine High School, killing 12 students and a teacher and wounding 26 others before killing themselves. At least one public report exists of a friend of Klebold who witnessed Klebold taking the antidepressants Paxil and Zoloft and urged him to come off them. Officially, Klebold’s medical records remain sealed.

Luvox, Paxil and Zoloft are in a class of drugs called selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs).

https://psychiatricfraud.org/2011/04/the-real-lesson-of-columbine-psychiatric-drugs-induce-violence/

 

[squirrelp]

squirrelp has it actually occurred to you that if there are links between taking certain medications and going on murder sprees, the links may be less about the meds causing the murders, and more that the same psychosis driving someone to believe killing their classmates is a good idea, might be the same psychosis the meds have been prescribed for in the first place? Or is that a bit too complicated?

That is the question: correlation does not necessarily prove causation.

However given that the link seems to be so compelling it absolutely warrants very thorough investigation. This investigation is not happening.

I don't believe there was anything like the rate of such school shootings, if any, prior to SSRI medications.

My experience of taking SSRIs included a dissociative experience. I absolutely did not feel part of the world or myself in the same way. It was very disturbing and I came straight off them.

 

[MrSpikey]

It's nice to know that someone was actually paying attention to the detail. You are referring to the Columbine massacre.



https://psychiatricfraud.org/2011/04/the-real-lesson-of-columbine-psychiatric-drugs-induce-violence/

"Detail" isn't a word I'd use to describe it.

You've obviously got a link to this public report, then? Strangely enough, that well-known bastion of truth psychiatricfraud.org neglected to actually link to it, despite referencing it.

 

[squirrelp]

Read this and hit your stupid, ignorant head against a wall repeatedly: The American mass shooting thread

Thank you for the link editor. I had already seen that article. I quote:

Factors That Don’t Correlate
If mental health made the difference, then data would show that Americans have more mental health problems than do people in other countries with fewer mass shootings. But the mental health care spending rate in the United States, the number of mental health professionals per capita and the rate of severe mental disorders are all in line with those of other wealthy countries.

Firstly, you should appreciate that I am not arguing that gun access has nothing to do with it. You would indeed have to be a total idiot to suggest that, and I have not done so. I don't doubt that the USA has such exponents of that, but I'm not to be included there.

So really there is no conflict here between my observation and this paragraph.

However it is also worth noting that your man Lankford ignores that while the US may have similar health care spending per capita for mental health, their prescription rate for psychiatric meds is sky high and certainly includes youngsters. My figures were that the USA downs 50% of the world's pharma and they have triple our rates for prescribing SSRIs.

 

[squirrelp]

 

[squirrelp]

I quote from the above:

"That's why I believe there should be an investigation, in terms of what... prescribed pharmaceuticals these kids were on... it just would be shocking I think to the millions of parents who prescribe this for their kids, if it was finally explained to them... that this perhaps occurred for no other reason other than these prescriptions"

Michael Moore

 

[MrSpikey]

However given that the link seems to be so compelling it absolutely warrants very thorough investigation. This investigation is not happening.

I investigated it, it only took a minute.

You claim that the evidence is "so compelling" but you can't provide anything other than hearsay to support the very first item on the list? You claim there is a public report, where is it?

 

[Spymaster]

US is averaging over 300 mass shootings a year, ...

Need to see how they define “mass shootings” here.

 

[fishfinger]

Need to see how they define “mass shootings” here.

Knock yourself out...

Mass Shootings | Gun Violence Archive

 

[Spymaster]

Knock yourself out...

Mass Shootings | Gun Violence Archive

Cheers. So in most of those nobody was killed and in many, no one even injured. Not sure I’d call those mass shootings.

 

[Yossarian]

Need to see how they define “mass shootings” here.

Appears to be "a shooting incident in which more than three people were killed or injured." If you were to define it as "a shooting incident in which at least three people were killed," you'd end up with an average of about one a week.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Thank you for the link editor. I had already seen that article. I quote:

Factors That Don’t Correlate
If mental health made the difference, then data would show that Americans have more mental health problems than do people in other countries with fewer mass shootings. But the mental health care spending rate in the United States, the number of mental health professionals per capita and the rate of severe mental disorders are all in line with those of other wealthy countries.

Firstly, you should appreciate that I am not arguing that gun access has nothing to do with it. You would indeed have to be a total idiot to suggest that, and I have not done so. I don't doubt that the USA has such exponents of that, but I'm not to be included there.

So really there is no conflict here between my observation and this paragraph.

However it is also worth noting that your man Lankford ignores that while the US may have similar health care spending per capita for mental health, their prescription rate for psychiatric meds is sky high and certainly includes youngsters. My figures were that the USA downs 50% of the world's pharma and they have triple our rates for prescribing SSRIs.

Just fuck off you stupid cunt.

 

[Spymaster]

Appears to be "a shooting incident in which more than three people were killed or injured." If you were to define it as "a shooting incident in which at least three people were killed," you'd end up with an average of about one a week.

I think you’re right. In the cases where there were no injuries there were deaths by the look of it.

 

[Spymaster]

Just fuck off you stupid cunt.

Why is he getting this level of vitriol? Is it really that controversial to suggest that people who shoot up schoolkids may have mental health issues?

I don’t think he’s saying the drugs caused the shootings is he?

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

I don’t think he’s saying the drugs caused the shootings is he?

That’s exactly where he’s coming from.

 

[bimble]

meanwhile..

 

[existentialist]

Why is he getting this level of vitriol? Is it really that controversial to suggest that people who shoot up schoolkids may have mental health issues?

I don’t think he’s saying the drugs caused the shootings is he?

It certainly is if all you're going to provide as evidence is hand picked lists of alleged drug using shooters. As I said in my earlier response to him, this stuff does harm.

It stigmatises mental illness, and discourages people from seeking help.

 

[Spymaster]

It certainly is if all you're going to provide as evidence is hand picked lists of alleged drug using shooters. As I said in my earlier response to him, this stuff does harm.

It stigmatises mental illness, and discourages people from seeking help.

So it’s not reasonable to conclude that the shooters who were being prescribed meds for mental health issues, had mental health issues?

 

[DotCommunist]

That’s exactly where he’s coming from.

he's also one of those that drink weird hippy juices and shit. Extracts of gruania and that. People in handwoven glass yurts shouldn't throw stones imo