The American mass shooting thread

[weepiper]

 

[mentalchik]

In fact if i remember rightly back in the mists of time on U75 didn't phill once propose that you were failing in your citizenship if you DIDN'T in fact arm yourself ?



(i may be wrong so apologies)

 

[ViolentPanda]

This is a slight derail, but to your first point- at least what you earn is, on some level, within your control. Before we paint Europe as a utopia, remember we have a history of valuing things like class that are completely un-influence able and so could potentially put more pressure on an individual because whatever they do they can't compete

We "value" class because it's relevant to the way our society operates, and class is only "uninfluencable" insofar as you only get to hang the ruling classes infrequently!

 

[ViolentPanda]

FFS, you knew exactly what I meant, but are claiming not to to pick a fight. You are clearly not stupid, so excuse me if this seems patronising;
We were talking about the US aspirant culture of only valuing the money an individual has.

Nope, not "only", and not merely money but accumulation of material goods too.

I said that Europe has a history of valuing things like class which may not be better. An individual cannot become a member of the 19th century aristocracy in Spain if they are not: they can earn more money

Aristocracy isn't a class per se, it's an accident of birth that makes one a heriditary member of a ruling class. However, one didn't need to be an aristocrat to be a member of the ruling class in 19th century, rather one's membership was made easier by being an aristo.

 

[JimW]

Saw this on "the facts" earlier:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...guns-and-mass-shootings-in-the-united-states/

Includes this graph showing that the US is apparently far more violent than the OECD nation average:

There's a link to the work that's based on there but must admit not checked how that's worked out.
ETA: Also directly contradicts phil's made-up point about gun control meaning more gun crime.

 

[Manter]

Nope, not "only", and not merely money but accumulation of material goods too.



Aristocracy isn't a class per se, it's an accident of birth that makes one a heriditary member of a ruling class. However, one didn't need to be an aristocrat to be a member of the ruling class in 19th century, rather one's membership was made easier by being an aristo.

Good points And it was a derail anyway

 

[butchersapron]

Good points And it was a derail anyway

A derail? I though it was vitally important that your crude misreadings of history and other concepts were aired? I don't want just any old pony.

 

[ViolentPanda]

In fact if i remember rightly back in the mists of time on U75 didn't phill once propose that you were failing in your citizenship if you DIDN'T in fact arm yourself ?



(i may be wrong so apologies)

He did.

 

[ViolentPanda]

A derail? I though it was vitally important that your crude misreadings of history and other concepts were aired? I don't want just any old pony.

You want a Shetland?

 

[frogwoman]

 

[mentalchik]

ETA: Also directly contradicts phil's made-up point about gun control meaning more gun crime.

phil doesn't make things up......they are the,

FACTS

 

[editor]

The US States with the highest rates of gun crime are those with the most stringent laws against gun ownership.

Whoops! States with stricter gun control laws have fewer deaths from gun-related violence.

 

[mentalchik]

 

[editor]

Well worth a read: Mythbusting: Israel and Switzerland are not gun-toting utopias

 

[Pickman's model]

It's disappointing every there's a killing spree in the us the u75 response to it is exactly the same, dwyer leading the thread down the same well-trodden path

 

[editor]

It's disappointing every there's a killing spree in the us the u75 response to it is exactly the same, dwyer leading the thread down the same well-trodden path

I didn't realise there was a standard "u75 response." Still, if you're finding it all so 'disappointing', why not enliven it with some of your own high grade analysis of the story?

 

[Stigmata]

This may have been mentioned already, but it's interesting to note that the BBC, CNN and Reuters don't prominently display any photos of the suspect (Al Jazeera and Fox News do). Perhaps a wiser response from some sections of the media than in previous years?

 

[Dandred]

This may have been mentioned already, but it's interesting to note that the BBC, CNN and Reuters don't prominently display any photos of the suspect (Al Jazeera and Fox News do). Perhaps a wiser response from some sections of the media than in previous years?

Why would that be?

 

[Stigmata]

Why would that be?

Why are they doing it or why is it sensible? The latter has been argued for years by criminal psychologists as a way of preventing copycat killings. Romanticising violence and all that.

 

[Pickman's model]

I didn't realise there was a standard "u75 response." Still, if you're finding it all so 'disappointing', why not enliven it with some of your own high grade analysis of the story?

this thread's gone where so many have gone before it, to israel, to switzerland, to attacks on the nra before the nra released a statement... There very much is a standard u75 response. I've engaged with it before, I don't think I will this time.

 

[butchersapron]

this thread's gone where so many have gone before it, to israel, to switzerland, to attacks on the nra before the nra released a statement... There very much is a standard u75 response.

That it keeps happening though says a fuck of a lot about what certain responses really mean.

 

[Miss Caphat]

The problem with these debates is they always become all or nothing. Either guns are the only explanation or guns are not an issue at all. People are shoehorned into one of two brackets. They are either prohibitionists or they are NRA gun nuts.

I don't think it is as binary as that. It is possible to recognise that the proliferation and wide availability of weapons is clearly part of the problem whilst also realising that something else is going on in a society where lunatics are all too often committing these kinds of mass murders

tbf, a lot of the discussion about this in the US has been about tackling the spectrum of issues from mental illness and prevention to gun control, the media, cultural factors, etc. Only people on the polarized ends make it SOLELY about guns one way or the other.

 

[butchersapron]

tbf, a lot of the discussion about this in the US has been about tackling the spectrum of issues from mental illness and prevention to gun control, the media, cultural factors, etc. Only people on the polarized ends make it SOLELY about guns one way or the other.

I've heard libertarian people today argue that access to weapons that can effectively impact on others is un-libertarian.

 

[weltweit]

Saw this on "the facts" earlier:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...guns-and-mass-shootings-in-the-united-states/

Includes this graph showing that the US is apparently far more violent than the OECD nation average:

There's a link to the work that's based on there but must admit not checked how that's worked out.
ETA: Also directly contradicts phil's made-up point about gun control meaning more gun crime.

stet

 

[JimW]

I think this is comparing apples with pears, the USA is a massive population, "other OECD countries" are all much smaller.

It's assault deaths per 100k of population if you look at the key, so valid as far as it goes, though of course leaves you with the question why if it is true.

 

[butchersapron]

I think this is comparing apples with pears, the USA is a massive population, "other OECD countries" are all much smaller.

People don't just add up the total numbers ffs. What do you think people who produce stats actually do?

 

[phildwyer]

In fact if i remember rightly back in the mists of time on U75 didn't phill once propose that you were failing in your citizenship if you DIDN'T in fact arm yourself ?

Probably. It sounds fair enough anyway.

I really don't understand what objection anyone could possibly raise to being given a gun, for free, by the government.

I mean, what would they say? "Ooo no, don't give me a gun, I might shoot somebody...."

But reason has little to do with this debate, which is inevitably dominated by subconscious irrational anxieties.

"Guns are horrid" "I hate guns" "Guns are smelly." That is quite literally the level to which many plummet whenever this subject is raised.

"A fear of firearms is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." -- Sigmund Freud.

 

[HST]

I think this is comparing apples with pears, the USA is a massive population, "other OECD countries" are all much smaller.

it's per 100K population so it's correctly weighted.

 

[Favelado]

I find the use of emoticons on the early pages of the thread (and others like it) quite weird. Why has it become normal to react to something the murder of 20 children with an animated purple face with its eyes popping out?

 

[Ax^]

(((Broken Britain)))