The American mass shooting thread

[Manter]

I had no idea what you meant. Your post was utterly unintelligible and seemed to be based on crude misreadings of the history of not one but two continents. As does that cliche ridden reply-which offers no explanation as to why you posted the rubbish in first place. Europe has no history of doing any such thing btw - the dominant elite cultural expression is that it did.

Sorry love, you won't get your fight from me today. Try someone else

 

[butchersapron]

Sorry love, you won't get your fight from me today. Try someone else

Love, brilliant. You're right i guess - class is un-influence able.

 

[Manter]

Love, brilliant. You're right i guess-class is un-influence able.

Eh?

 

[goldenecitrone]

Eh?

This is your prize for being Newbie of the Year. From all of us. Enjoy!

 

[Manter]

This is your prize for being Newbie of the Year. From all of us. Enjoy!

I'm sure Greebo promised me half a satsuma....

 

[phildwyer]

Don't be silly. Guns are the most efficient killing machines. They're easy to use, easy to get hold of, very accurate and horribly effective on the human body. That's what they're made for, and that's why these school mass murdering sprees almost always involve them and not napalm attacks.

Historically speaking, the truth is that rates of gun crime rise when guns are made illegal. And they fall when guns are legalized.

The US States with the highest rates of gun crime are those with the most stringent laws against gun ownership.

The US states with the lowest rates of gun crime are those where gun ownership is legal.

The countries where guns are legal, and virtually every adult owns one, have very low rates of gun crime (Cuba, Switzerland).

The countries where guns are strictly illegal, so only criminals own them, show massively high rates of gun crime (Jamaica, Mexico).

And that's quite apart from the moral and political issues involved. People should have the right to bear arms in order to defend themselves (a moral right) and in order to defend themselves from tyranny (a political right).

 

[Blagsta]

FFS, you knew exactly what I meant, but are claiming not to to pick a fight. You are clearly not stupid, so excuse me if this seems patronising;
We were talking about the US aspirant culture of only valuing the money an individual has. I said that Europe has a history of valuing things like class which may not be better. An individual cannot become a member of the 19th century aristocracy in Spain if they are not: they can earn more money

What do you mean by "valuing class"?

 

[Ax^]

I'm sure Greebo promised me half a satsuma....

If you'd come out with "sweetie" I'd of had to double check who was posting

 

[mentalchik]

Historically speaking, the truth is that rates of gun crime rise when guns are made illegal. And they fall when guns are legalized.

The US States with the highest rates of gun crime are those with the most stringent laws against gun ownership.

The US states with the lowest rates of gun crime are those where gun ownership is legal.

The countries where guns are legal, and virtually every adult owns one, have very low rates of gun crime (Cuba, Switzerland).

The countries where guns are strictly illegal, so only criminals own them, show massively high rates of gun crime (Jamaica, Mexico).

And that's quite apart from the moral and political issues involved. People should have the right to bear arms in order to defend themselves (a moral right) and in order to defend themselves from tyranny (a political right).

 

[butchersapron]

What do you mean by "valuing class"?

Or 'europe'.

 

[phildwyer]

Be as suspicious as you like. But you cannot argue with THE FACTS.

 

[butchersapron]

FFS, you knew exactly what I meant, but are claiming not to to pick a fight. You are clearly not stupid, so excuse me if this seems patronising;
We were talking about the US aspirant culture of only valuing the money an individual has. I said that Europe has a history of valuing things like class which may not be better. An individual cannot become a member of the 19th century aristocracy in Spain if they are not: they can earn more money

Actually status - not class,which is what you're talking about - is mobile and the various aristocracies are noted for their ability to sponsor members from outside of the born ranks into theirs. Read some actual history. Love.

 

[phildwyer]

The number of weapons out there would make a ban pointless and just drive gun ownership underground.

Not only that. A ban would have no effect on criminals. It would just mean that law-abiding citizens could not own guns.

 

[mentalchik]

not THE FACTS ..............

 

[weepiper]

South Carolina paper runs huge ad for a handgun sale, directly beneath a picture of children running from the school.

 

[Spymaster]

South Carolina paper runs huge ad for a handgun sale, directly beneath a picture of children running from the school.

 

[mentalchik]

@ phil,

does the UK have stringent anti gun laws ?

 

[phildwyer]

not THE FACTS ..............

Yes, they're awkward little buggers aren't they? Tend to mess up your preconceptions and that.

Here's another FACT. Historically speaking, the first thing tyrannical governments do is take away the people's arms (eg Hitler).

And the first thing liberators do is arm the people (eg Castro).

The slogan "every Cuban must learn to shoot, and to shoot well" is emblazoned throughout the country, often above the many public firing ranges.

Also, if the Spanish Republic had armed the people when they had a chance, they'd have kicked Franco all the way back to ChefChouan.

Stubborn things, facts...

 

[Spymaster]

@ phil,

does the UK have stringent anti gun laws ?

Among the most stringent in the world.

Ridiculously so, imo.

 

[butchersapron]

Yes, they're awkward little buggers aren't they? Tend to mess up your preconceptions and that.

Here's another FACT. Historically speaking, the first thing tyrannical governments do is take away the people's arms (eg Hitler).

And the first thing liberators do is arm the people (eg Castro).

The slogan "every Cuban must learn to shoot, and to shoot well" is emblazoned throughout the country, often above the many public firing ranges.

Also, if the Spanish Republic had armed the people when they had a chance, they'd have kicked Franco all the way back to ChefChouan.

Stubborn things, facts...

Like shit-stains in the toilet bowl.

 

[Manter]

South Carolina paper runs huge ad for a handgun sale, directly beneath a picture of children running from the school.

somehow unsurprised, but jesus....

 

[mentalchik]

Among the most stringent in the world.

Ridiculously so, imo.

and we are not overun with gun crime ?

 

[phildwyer]

@ phil,

does the UK have stringent anti gun laws ?

Yes. And it recently has been the scene of numerous massacres involving guns.

A sensible person would conclude that anti-gun laws are not effective in preventing such incidents.

 

[mentalchik]

Yes. And it recently has been the scene of numerous massacres involving guns.

A sensible person would conclude that anti-gun laws are not effective in preventing such incidents.

Tsk you said countries with really stringent anti gun laws have MASSIVELY high gun crime...........................and statistically we don't

 

[phildwyer]

Tsk you said countries with really stringent anti gun laws have MASSIVELY high gun crime...........................and statistically we don't

What I said was absolutely true.

The countries with really stringent laws against guns (far more stringent than the UK's) have the highest rates of gun crime in the world. I gave the examples of Mexico and Jamaica, but there are countless others too.

 

[mentalchik]

stop wriggling phil you naughty sausage

 

[elbows]

More usually, it's one arm of the media (print and broadcast news) pointing the finger at another part (entertainment), and the arguments made are generally facile and shallow, given how little proof has been found to substantiate such claims despite 25+ years of research.

Well sure, narrativisation of violent acts as somehow being steps on a pathway to truth and glory a la "Die Hard" don't help, but do they actually act as an enabler, as an inspiration for such actions, or are they merely a convenient post hoc justification for the unjustifiable?

Ah well we are probably talking about slightly different things. I think what Im remembering was something that was probably on one of Charlie Brookers programs a few years ago. Ah yes, I just went and found the piece I was thinking of. Obviously its focussing only on his area of interest, in this case shit news coverage, but its still worth considering.



Again I wouldnt want to overstate it, its only one of many factors and will only apply to certain killers. Its easier to make this sort of case where the killer has done some advanced planning and self-aggrandizing, eg by making sure there is plenty of fantasy hardman stuff on the internet about them in advance of the rampage. Its still a bit early to confidently proclaim much about this latest killer, but news today suggests this wasnt the case with him. So we may be looking at a case of extreme isolation and personality disorder, the effects of divorce, and a trigger event.

We're also surrounded, in Europe, by the legacy of mass violence. It's everywhere we go. I suspect that for the last 60+ years at least, that's put a brake on our willingness to indulge in casual fatal conflict.

I suppose some related themes might be how young the US is as a nation, the relatively short amount of time since they had a civil war compared to us, etc. Although if anything this plays more into certain wider cultural and political issues than whats going through the mind of a particular killer.

 

[two sheds]

No phil's right again. The lowest gun crime is in those countries with most guns, and the highest gun crime is in those countries with NO GUNS AT ALL.

More FACTS.

 

[mentalchik]

No sheds.......FACTS

 

[two sheds]

No sheds.......FACTS

SORRY