The American mass shooting thread

[story]

Indeed, and I think that is one of the big reasons why the proposed incrementalism of the gun control lobby (closing loopholes, enhanced background checks, partial bans on certain types of certain guns / gun parts) has been such a failure - the political chat that always accompanies a horror like this only ever sells more guns. Eventually the chat goes away (usually because it either fails to become law or does become law but fails to solve things) and the next horror occurs, at which the same people say the same things and the other same people buy more guns and ammo, and so on and so forth.

The only argument that will (at least in the current circumstances) stand a chance of reducing the number of these tragedies in the long term is to interpret the 2A in terms of something like Switzerland; ie: every adult can be a part of the militia (organized at the county or state level), the militia has to be organized and trained to common federal standards (part of "well regulated") and that every participating adult can keep at home a certain number of a certain type of firearm in certain calibres (the other part of "well regulated").

Issue the guns and ammo as well (rather than sell them) and you'd put a big dent in the firearms industry, reducing it to the state arsenal level again and closing loads of gun shops. That would then lead to a gradual decline in the number of non-standard privately held firearms, a decline which could be sped up with buybacks and amnesties. It would take decades and there would still be mass killings, but I think the trend would be downwards over time.

The incrementalism bit.… Seems a bit ironic that this is the way they‘re working to undermine contraceptive and abortion rights.

The people who are defending gun rights with such bullish determination are the same people who are using loopholes, cut offs, background check, partial bans, bypasses etc to dismantle women‘s rights over their bodies,

 

[Ax^]

aye but are they the ones shooting up a elementry school

must admit the 21 age restriction idea might be the only restriction idea being suggested that may gain traction in the states

 

[frogwoman]

I have read that pedophile scares were a tool the Nazis used to get rid of political opponents. Accusations of pedophilia are easy to level, difficult to disprove, and emotionally charged. That's certainly something we're seeing with Q-anon.

Nonce fever is something fairly common in UK politics tbh although maybe not to such levels?

Take it you mean "liberals you wouldn't normally expect this from". Liberals in the US generally have been quite diverse in their views and personal practices re: personal firearms.

Sure, I'm talking about quite middle of the road Biden fans on twitter tho. As agricola says the chat following such shootings isn't going to dissuade someone from buying a gun even if they hate guns

 

[NoXion]

The incrementalism bit.… Seems a bit ironic that this is the way they‘re working to undermine contraceptive and abortion rights.

The people who are defending gun rights with such bullish determination are the same people who are using loopholes, cut offs, background check, partial bans, bypasses etc to dismantle women‘s rights over their bodies,

Yeah, I'm not convinced that incrementalism is the real problem here. If the gunhumpers start frothing with apoplectic rage at the notion of closing loopholes and background checks, then I get the sense that they would go literally ballistic at any sniff of interpreting 2A in the Swiss style.

 

[agricola]

Yeah, I'm not convinced that incrementalism is the real problem here. If the gunhumpers start frothing with apoplectic rage at the notion of closing loopholes and background checks, then I get the sense that they would go literally ballistic at any sniff of interpreting 2A in the Swiss style.

Some would (the NRA and the grifters especially), but I think a lot of the rest would be fine with a system that guaranteed they could both own firearms and be of use with them to their community. These are the people who really do believe (with some justification) that an armed citizen could stop a mass killing like this, a terror attack or (if there were enough armed citizens) an overzealous government.

Incrementalism on the other hand just spooks the rest (even if their guns are not affected) and gives ammunition to the grifters to grift with... plus I don't think there is much evidence that it works anyway.

 

[story]

aye but are they the ones shooting up a elementry school

must admit the 21 age restriction idea might be the only restriction idea being suggested that may gain traction in the states

Again..

It is already far too late to legislate for age restrictions on gun ownership.

The gun manufacturers have already identified children as a very lucrative market and hard sell to even very young children.

 

[Ax^]

Fair play America is fucked

more guns, thoughts, prayers and move on

 

[story]

And it’s not a new thing.


My Dad (American) had alarming stories about access to guns, being taught about guns as a young child. I’ve been in homes where guns were laying about on tables and toddlers were grabbing at them. I’ve also been in homes where gun ownership and responsible use was being taught in responsible fashion, but for every home where there’s is proper locked gun rack, there are others where guns are just laying about.

Guns are as normal as cigarette lighters, that’s the point. Kids know about guns as early as they know about brushing their teeth.

Gun culture is inbuilt, inherent, essential, historic, part of their founding story, their origin story. You can’t remove gun culture from the American psyche. Gun culture IS American culture.








Etc….

 

[story]

Yeah, I'm not convinced that incrementalism is the real problem here. If the gunhumpers start frothing with apoplectic rage at the notion of closing loopholes and background checks, then I get the sense that they would go literally ballistic at any sniff of interpreting 2A in the Swiss style.

It wasn’t an argument for doing anything of the sort. It would be pointless to attempt doing this. I was just struck by the irony.

There is no way back now. I feel quite strongly that the moment for change was passed some time back. If anything this latest atrocity will cement the problem in more strongly. Because nothing will be done, and it will serve to confirm that nothing can be done, so as Ax^ says, they’ll just move on to the next massacre, and the next.

As the news broke last night I had the normal feelings of anger, frustration, horror that break over me every time, but also a new more insistence sense of hopelessness and resignation. And today I’ve been really struck by the ringing silence from my American people. Not one person has posted on FB or responded to my posts, not even those in Texas. As if there is nothing left to say. Thoughts and prayers have proven to be pointless. And they know (of course they do) that the stupid insistence that more guns is the answer is preposterous and cannot stand. So there is nothing left to say or do.

 

[8ball]

I feel quite strongly that the moment for change was passed some time back.

Me too. Not sure I can quite put my finger on when it properly passed.

 

[story]

It’s really miserable.

 

[Ax^]

we are getting a bit Onion atm

try nothing as it won't work

 

[Duncan2]

I actually can't remember the last time i saw a group of kids toting plastic six-shooters.It was practically de rigeure to leap around with a plastic Colt or Remington when,decades ago,I was of primary school age.Maybe in the UK at least parents are coming to their senses somewhat?
This prompted by Story's post upthread.

 

[story]

I actually can't remember the last time i saw a group of kids toting plastic six-shooters.It was practically de rigeure to leap around with a plastic Colt or Remington when,decades ago,I was of primary school age.Maybe in the UK at least parents are coming to their senses somewhat?
This prompted by Story's post upthread.

Exactly.

Whether or not it’s okay for kids to play with toy guns has been part of the debate over here for decades. It’s been extended to other weapons like plastic swords, space ray guns etc.

I’ve been aware of it for many years despite not being a parent, because parents I know prefer their kids not to have toy guns. (some will allow it, some allow it under certain circumstances, most won’t).

Google for “is it okay for children to play with toy guns” and you’ll see pages and pages of hits, from all sections of the British media.

This debate simply does not exist in America, or not to any meaningful degree. And if it is raised it’s confined to certain sectors, all of which are mocked, castigated or otherwise shunned.

 

[story]

 

[Cid]

Some would (the NRA and the grifters especially), but I think a lot of the rest would be fine with a system that guaranteed they could both own firearms and be of use with them to their community. These are the people who really do believe (with some justification) that an armed citizen could stop a mass killing like this, a terror attack or (if there were enough armed citizens) an overzealous government.

Incrementalism on the other hand just spooks the rest (even if their guns are not affected) and gives ammunition to the grifters to grift with... plus I don't think there is much evidence that it works anyway.

In practice this would probably just end up legitimising a whole swathe of right-wing militias. Militia patrols through 'rough areas' of towns... militia presence at polling booths. Just extrapolate from the state of US policing.

 

[NoXion]

I actually can't remember the last time i saw a group of kids toting plastic six-shooters.It was practically de rigeure to leap around with a plastic Colt or Remington when,decades ago,I was of primary school age.Maybe in the UK at least parents are coming to their senses somewhat?
This prompted by Story's post upthread.

Nerf guns are still pretty popular, if my nephew and his friends are anything to go by. I think these days that kind of thing is just played with in the house or garden.

 

[Clair De Lune]

Maybe if schools didn't turn a blind eye to kids being ruthlessly bullied throughout their entire childhood's this shit wouldn't happen as often. If guns were easily accessible to 18 year olds here, I have no doubt we'd have mass school shootings too. Here the bullying victims turn the violence on themselves and if they survive they become utterly fucked up adults, unless they're v lucky and find adequate support and love.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

The Onion really outdid themselves. There's about 15 stories on their main page with the usual headline. They also posted this:

NRA Publishes Tips For Staying Safe While Committing A Mass Shooting

FAIRFAX, VA—Citing its longtime commitment to the promotion of safety among firearm enthusiasts, the National Rifle Association published a series of pointers Tuesday on how to keep safe while carrying out a mass shooting. “Every gun owner should know the NRA’s fundamental safety rules so they...

www.theonion.com

 

[two sheds]

I've quite often seen the argument from gun fans that, if you take guns off all the 'good guys' then you're left with the 'bad guys' owning all the guns. But yes that's the point really - in the UK anyone who has a gun who shouldn't have it is guilty of a criminal offence and can be sentenced to 2 to 5 years' in prison. Once you take guns out of general circulation anyone with a gun that shouldn't have one becomes more obvious.

 

[petee]

The Onion really outdid themselves. There's about 15 stories on their main page with the usual headline. They also posted this:

NRA Publishes Tips For Staying Safe While Committing A Mass Shooting

FAIRFAX, VA—Citing its longtime commitment to the promotion of safety among firearm enthusiasts, the National Rifle Association published a series of pointers Tuesday on how to keep safe while carrying out a mass shooting. “Every gun owner should know the NRA’s fundamental safety rules so they...

www.theonion.com

i see they included the classic, 21 times

‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens

INDIANAPOLIS—In the hours following a violent rampage in Indiana in which a lone attacker killed eight individuals and injured several others, citizens living in the only country where this kind of mass killing routinely occurs reportedly concluded Friday that there was no way to prevent the...

www.theonion.com

 

[8ball]

Maybe if schools didn't turn a blind eye to kids being ruthlessly bullied throughout their entire childhood's this shit wouldn't happen as often. If guns were easily accessible to 18 year olds here, I have no doubt we'd have mass school shootings too. Here the bullying victims turn the violence on themselves and if they survive they become utterly fucked up adults, unless they're v lucky and find adequate support and love.

I saw some research that was different to what I had previously assumed in terms of bullying.
It seems that in many more cases the school shooters were the actual bullies and had orchestrated their own campaigns of harassment in the past.

Also, known bullies were the least targeted victims generally.

Where specific victims were targeted it would most often be girls who had rejected them, or teachers they disliked.

 

[pseudonarcissus]

Incrementalism on the other hand just spooks the rest (even if their guns are not affected) and gives ammunition to the grifters to grift with... plus I don't think there is much evidence that it works anyway.

although it looks like the Supreme Court will be ruling that States' rights may trump established constitutional precedent (Roe vs Wade)...so maybe some of the blue states will bring in restrictions (probably not restricting citizen's right to owning guns only as part as a well regulated militia) and the SC would be in a bit of a pickle to overturn such restrictions...the very restrictions they have been finding unconstitutional recently. we may get state-by-state incrementalism.

 

[pseudonarcissus]

although it looks like the Supreme Court will be ruling that States' rights may trump established constitutional precedent (Roe vs Wade)...so maybe some of the blue states will bring in restrictions (probably not restricting citizen's right to owning guns only as part as a well regulated militia) and the SC would be in a bit of a pickle to overturn such restrictions...the very restrictions they have been finding unconstitutional recently. we may get state-by-state incrementalism.

...and the Texas sodomy law back

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Congress Placed On Lockdown After Deranged Man Enters Senate With Gun Control Measures

The Onion brings you all of the latest news, stories, photos, videos and more from America's finest news source.

www.theonion.com

 

[frogwoman]

I saw some research that was different to what I had previously assumed in terms of bullying.
It seems that in many more cases the school shooters were the actual bullies and had orchestrated their own campaigns of harassment in the past.

Also, known bullies were the least targeted victims generally.

Where specific victims were targeted it would most often be girls who had rejected them, or teachers they disliked.

Do you have a link?

 

[yield]

The only argument that will (at least in the current circumstances) stand a chance of reducing the number of these tragedies in the long term is to interpret the 2A in terms of something like Switzerland; ie: every adult can be a part of the militia (organized at the county or state level), the militia has to be organized and trained to common federal standards (part of "well regulated") and that every participating adult can keep at home a certain number of a certain type of firearm in certain calibres (the other part of "well regulated").

Issue the guns and ammo as well (rather than sell them) and you'd put a big dent in the firearms industry, reducing it to the state arsenal level again and closing loads of gun shops. That would then lead to a gradual decline in the number of non-standard privately held firearms, a decline which could be sped up with buybacks and amnesties. It would take decades and there would still be mass killings, but I think the trend would be downwards over time.

I don't see how that would work? The state giving guns to every adult.

The NRA Supported Gun Control When the Black Panthers Had the Weapons. Back in the 1960s, even the NRA supported gun control to disarm the group.

 

[frogwoman]

I don't see how that would work? The state giving guns to every adult.

The NRA Supported Gun Control When the Black Panthers Had the Weapons. Back in the 1960s, even the NRA supported gun control to disarm the group.

Can you imagine the freakouts there would be with that proposal though?

 

[Clair De Lune]

I saw some research that was different to what I had previously assumed in terms of bullying.
It seems that in many more cases the school shooters were the actual bullies and had orchestrated their own campaigns of harassment in the past.

Also, known bullies were the least targeted victims generally.

Where specific victims were targeted it would most often be girls who had rejected them, or teachers they disliked.

Yeah I get the sense they're angry with the schools rather than trying to seek revenge on their past bullies.

Interesting ...I'd like to hear more about the bullies being the shooters.
Its certainly true in the primary school I'm in that the most prolific bullies are the kids who've experienced the most trauma.

 

[T & P]

The constant looming shadow of guns in the US is disturbing, and not just in horrible incidents like this but how they condition everyday life and deliver an overhanging feeling of potential threat to life even in the most innocuous of situations. At least to my European centric eyes.

Years ago my OH and I and another couple took a driving holiday in the US. One day we got pulled over by the police for speeding slightly on the turnpike, which we knew we were doing.

Seeing the cop approach our car cupping his gun ready to draw was fucked up enough, but when my friend at the wheel started to get out of the car to greet him, as anyone in the UK would do in such situation, he actually got his gun half way out of the holster and started shouting demanding he goes back in and all four of us put our hands where he could see them.

After a few moments’ conversation he assessed us not to be a threat and chilled out a bit, more so still as he realised we were four European tourists unfamiliar with America’s traffic violations etiquette. FWIW he eventually let us off with a warning. But it was fucking depressing and disturbing to see how little it seems to take for law enforcement over there to regard any member of the public as a potential lethal threat, and reach for their gun.