Proper Tidy
Arsed
Can you give any examples of the EU protecting heavy industry or preventing production switches to low wage EU economies in eastern europe because I can only think of examples of it encouraging this
The 2019 General Election
- Thread starter brogdale
- Start date
Can you give any examples of the EU protecting heavy industry or preventing production switches to low wage EU economies in eastern europe because I can only think of examples of it encouraging this
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
ECSC rules were all about protecting German industry. A lot of the 'social' regulations brought in in '92 were to stop a shift of industry to unregulated EE. Their workers were generously allowed to come here instead.
EU 'regional' policy also allows for support for industry, the UK governments chose not to make use of it.
EU 'regional' policy also allows for support for industry, the UK governments chose not to make use of it.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
No he can’t. What’s more he continues to pretend the EU didn’t play a role in imposing quotas or demanding closures.
As usual it’s nonsense. The EU Davignon Plan in the in the mid 1970’s - long before Maastricht- saw steel subject to common external trade barriers; required detailed production, employment and delivery forecasts from firms; set minimum prices and production quotas; and granted aid on the condition it was coupled with capacity and employment reductions.
Proper Tidy
Arsed
I assume the ECSC rules you cite here is referring to post war policy which I think you know is very silly. As silly as citing UK social democratic policy from same era.
Social chapter of Maastricht was about freedom of movement (of labour) with standardisation of labour rights to facilitate that freedom of movement of labour (for benefit of capital).
gosub
~#
Lib Dem candidate stands aside to avoid 'nightmare' of Tory win
Getting odder by the day in a sort of l9gicalway
Getting odder by the day in a sort of l9gicalway
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
took you a while too google that. Can you do anything to show how it affected UK plants? and was not smashing the unions a rather more important factor?
Germany and France spend double what the UK does on state aid. It was a UK government decision.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
On C4News they said that the party had confirmed they would select and stand a replacement candidate to ensure that the tories take back the seat.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Yes, I just said that. But it wasn't just that. It did so in order to stop those industries (and the associated taxes revenue) from going somewhere else. It is about ensuring a market entry position that the eastern european nations couldnt match.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
Given the steelworks where my dad worked - and was a steward - was closed as part of the BSC ‘contribution’ to the plan I don’t need to google it you prick. I’ve got lived experience of it.
As for numbers I think over 150,000 jobs were lost here during the period. However, we can both google the numbers if necessary.
Now, how about answering the question from proper tidy or are you going to carry on embarrassing yourself?
Proper Tidy
Arsed
And then it brought those eastern european nations into the tent and exploited their low wage low rights economies by facilitating production switches from more developed EU economies, what are you arguing here, everything you cite is the EU looking after the interests of EU capital
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
There you go.
Updated: The British steel industry since the 1970s - Office for National Statistics
Employment in the steel industry around a tenth of the early 1970s level
Employment in the steel industry, Great Britain, 1971 to 2014
Updated: The British steel industry since the 1970s - Office for National Statistics
Employment in the steel industry around a tenth of the early 1970s level
Employment in the steel industry, Great Britain, 1971 to 2014
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
of course the EU looks after capital, of course that's what it's there for. But it works in the interests of the major capitals within it and allows support for the industries they want to retain, notably Germany and France. The UK too was fairly protected, as a major funder. Most of Eastern Europe is still completely fucked too, precious few productin switches to Bulgaria and Romania.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Proper Tidy
Arsed
Right, so no deindustrialisation in germany or france then, no wholesale increase in unemployment levels across EU as whole, no production switches to poland or hungary where wages are lower. This all started when I queried your claim that the EU has nothing to do with deindustrialisation. How can it not
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
No I don't think it's about framing everything about Brexit, and if things were right in terms of labour having a good relationship with working class communiites they wouldn't be where they are on brexit. And if labour have been saying all those things overtly and explicitly, why is it that nobody believes them or even cares what they think anymore?
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
I said the EU had next to nothing to do with deindustrialisation in this country. The UK led the field there, well ahead of the EU. There was almost no industry (within the meaning of deindustrialisation) left to move! Even now, at least as many factories are being moved to Singapore etc as to Poland and Hungary (two of the three or four countries which are getting such transfers.)
To get back to my original point - most of the UK's economic and social problems have been caused by UK government decisions, that they'd have made whatever trading bloc they did or did not belong to, and we shouldn't rewrite history to blame the EU or EEC for things done by our governments.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
This is all over the shop. Deindustrialisation is ultimately driven by capital and company directors searching out cheaper labour, union free zones and higher profit. Both the UK government and the EU have actively facilitated this process for the last 40 years. Your failure to understand that this is the case, and to paint the EU, the single market and the prioritisation of the free flow of capital as largely a bystander is frankly bizarre.
We’ve got a chance to elect a government offering a different approach next month. There is no democratic opportunity to do the same with the EU single market.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
well, lets see how many people believe and support them on december 12th.
There are clearly communities who were absolutely fucked under Thatcher and Blair where labours base was all but destroyed, where the membership disappeared and unions often did the same. It is fucking hard to win those communities back without just offering some misty eyed vision of the past. Labour being fully gung ho for Brexit wouldn't change that.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
to paint the Eu etc etc as what??? I fully understand both have facilitated the process, and have said so repeatedly. My point is about causation.
Leaving the EU doesn't give that much more room for manoeuvre than remaining in does, in terms of economic policy. WTO rules are almost as restrictive and aren't at all keen on the capital controls you seem to be demanding. There is a little more room, which is why I support leaving, but it really is quite small indeed. A properly socialist economic plan would mean fucking both off, and if we're going to fuck them both off, it doesn't really matter if we're in the EU or out of it when we do so.
Libertad
Sparking up a rollie in the Reichstag
Have you considered what effect the full moon on the 12th may have on voting choices?
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
More loons.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
The moon is in opposition to Jupiter on the 12th, which could indicate trouble towards law authorities.
Which sounds like spunking cock for the win.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
the Best for Britain MRP thingy has figures of 31 tory, 25 labour and 21 libs, so I can imagine that poor deluded Jo thinks they could have a change there.
bluescreen
tofu eating wokerati
That looks like something from a musical onstage. Is that St Bob centre?
Dogsauce
I’ve got Skol but I’m not a Scholar
The one thing a December election will do is make it harder for people to go canvassing or leafleting in the evening, darkness/cold may make this unsafe or unappealing. Given Labour has a lot more boots on the ground than the tories then any advantage from this will be reduced.
Dogsauce
I’ve got Skol but I’m not a Scholar
I’m not so certain, if they hold a ‘People’s Vote’ it’ll be something that opponents will rally against strongly, anti-labour types will see it as a means to give them a kicking, goaded on by a hostile press. Would almost certainly mean the most Brexity option was chosen. Kind of like how the Lib Dems lost the AV referendum because people wanted to punish them for their betrayal going in with the tories, not that people were happy with the current voting system.
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