SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
But we wouldn't want to reject taking their money on such trivial grounds, oh no.
The 2019 General Election
- Thread starter brogdale
- Start date
But we wouldn't want to reject taking their money on such trivial grounds, oh no.
Proper Tidy
Arsed
Not a strategic point this, just about politics and fairness in general, but surely we/'the left' should want an overhaul of immigration rules - freedom of movement (unless you are homeless etc) within europe while enforcing hard borders around europe to deny desperate and vulnerable people sanctuary doesn't sound like something I would want to maintain
LOL @ lexit.
Proper Tidy
Arsed
Not an open borders position this, open borders is a nonsense without a dramatic closing of wealth gap across the world, but I would rather a system that didn't allow freedom of movement or whatever we call it based on origin or nationality, or social background/economic power fwiw, but on need
Proper Tidy
Arsed
Oh ok, so it's bad to think immigration should be based on fairness to migrants than on which countries a state has trade deals with, ok sound
LIb Dump.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Sure. But removing the right of free movement around that larger area doesn't help those not from that area. In fact, what we have seen with the toxic immigration debate is that, for those already here, things have got tougher for all of them, regardless of where they are from.
It's not fair that you punch me and don't punch them.
Oh, ok, I'll punch both of you. That better?
The UK's recent dismal record in taking in refugees (despite being one of the countries whose foreign policy has helped to create many of those refugees) had nothing to do with free movement in the EU, and you can bet that the situation will either remain the same or get worse once the tories have removed free movement (if/when they manage it). Anti-EU immigration can't be separated from just a general anti-immigration position. And it's left us in a very sorry place right now.
Proper Tidy
Arsed
Yeah I agree with all that, but labour - and beyond labour - could have taken a position that wasn't retreat to the above and also wasn't defending the deeply unfair and brutal immigration policy of the EU
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Yes. that's dangerously close to 'radical remain'.
Pretty much my position through all this fwiw. Labour conceded the May argument that the brexit vote had to mean new immigration controls. imo, as I said above, that inevitably left them in a corner from which they had to promise to land more punches. I think it was a terrible decision.
Proper Tidy
Arsed
Yes. that's dangerously close to 'radical remain'.
Labour conceded the May argument that the brexit vote had to mean new immigration controls. imo, as I said above, that inevitably left them in a corner from which they had to promise to land more punches. I think it was a terrible decision.
Coulda would shoulda of course but could have (should have imo) been a leave position
Azrael
circling Airstrip One
Couldn’t agree more about Labour’s failure to challenge anti-immigrant rhetoric, and they should certainly have advocated Norway from the off.
As for its odds of success, it was likely too late by early 2019 and the indicative votes: continuity Remain loathe Norway; Labour leavers won’t touch anything that doesn’t allow draconian immigration controls; and most Tories who could stomach the EEA were put off by the customs union bolt-on.
Still, I wouldn’t be surprised if we see it back in some form: as you say, emigration controls aren’t well known, and several leavers have reacted with horror when they learn of them. A few thousand voters screaming about delays at airports and not being able to retire to Spain and the conversation changes fast.
MickiQ
In My Defence I was left Unsupervised
Don't think so, Labour were always going to be facing a massive problem whichever position they took, they were appealing to 2 major groups of voters, The poorer working class voters in solid Labour seats who are also pretty solid Leave and the youth vote who were attracted to the initial "Break the Mould, Let's try Something New" approach that Corbyn seemed to offer. This vote is equally solid Remain.
Which is why Labour came up with their hideous Sit on The Fence mashup that in the end appealed to no-one, it was a bad idea but in fairness I don't think there was any other option for them.
Labour's best hope was to get the conversation away from Brexit all together and onto other issues and that they largely failed to do.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Yep. Totally this. It was the only hope I had that Labour would do well (by which I simply mean prevent an overall tory majority). But it didn't work. Clearly it all did boil down to brexit in the areas that mattered, and 'Get Brexit Done' won it. For all that all of us are saying that we would have liked to have seen, that might always have been the case - even if Labour had committed to a 'soft' brexit all along, given the anti-immigrant message of the tories.
The most depressing aspect of that is that the tories were nakedly racist and xenophobic with the specific goal of winning over a significant number of Labour leavers, or at least getting them to vote Brexit Party or stay at home. Johnson turned himself into Farage. And it worked. That depresses the hell out of me.
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
Blair now looks exactly like the Steve Bell cartoon of himself. Which fits in nicely with his descent into delusional self-parody.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
He looks more like a lizard every day
Blair now looks exactly like the Steve Bell cartoon of himself. Which fits in nicely with his descent into delusional self-parody.
Proper Tidy
Arsed
People aren't innately leave or remain, they take those positions for reasons. The 'youth vote' (not solid remain fwiw, plenty of younger activist types in labour who were leave) took that position because of the leave on offer.
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
All Blair needed to do to prevent brexit happening was to campaign in favour of it. He's more toxic than corbyn
Blair now looks exactly like the Steve Bell cartoon of himself. Which fits in nicely with his descent into delusional self-parody.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Yeh like his true self, like a lizard, two sides of the same debased coin
Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
That side parting is worrying
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
And look at those dead eyes
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
That's going to be tricky when the narrative ever since the days of Ed Miliband has been 'Labour needs to get more racist to win back the working class voters'.
mauvais
on reddit or something
Blair now looks exactly like the Steve Bell cartoon of himself. Which fits in nicely with his descent into delusional self-parody.
YES.
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
"Tony has risen from the grave".
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Quick, where's a stake
Mr Moose
What the hell are we supposed to tell the kids?
Who’s narrative?
This isn’t correct, both in that since Ed’s immigration mug printing spree it’s been off the menu for Labour and that this is not what most w class people want. I don’t, you don’t and most of the people you are referring to simply want someone who they believe is on their side. Hostility to others is the way the right shows that, but equally being positive about the UK, its people, it’s prospects and what they care about/need is what is required.
HoratioCuthbert
Deep seated inconsequence
I was thinking that, I thought surely he’s going to get to a point of greyness and deterioration that the BBC policy will change and they won’t get him to weigh in every time.
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
If you're interested in the absolute gangfuck that was Labours' election campaign in a random constituency...
Wyre Forest is in the West Midlands, voted leave by about 60%, and is a swing constituency - it's been Labour, independent, and Tory. Firstly there was a squabble over the candidate: local bloke got chinned off, bloke from outside with no local links got dropped in, and the sum total of the Labour campaign in this swing constituency was - 3 tweets, a couple of Facebook posts, and, err... that's it.
Yup, that was fucking it.
A CLP chair was on the radio here and he was having a right honk off about the campaign - he was saying that the regional media Comms people set up not one single interview with any of the local candidates, and when the CLP's organised their own the party HQ ordered them cancelled.
And that ladies and gents, is how you tell people that you're not interested in them...
Wyre Forest is in the West Midlands, voted leave by about 60%, and is a swing constituency - it's been Labour, independent, and Tory. Firstly there was a squabble over the candidate: local bloke got chinned off, bloke from outside with no local links got dropped in, and the sum total of the Labour campaign in this swing constituency was - 3 tweets, a couple of Facebook posts, and, err... that's it.
Yup, that was fucking it.
A CLP chair was on the radio here and he was having a right honk off about the campaign - he was saying that the regional media Comms people set up not one single interview with any of the local candidates, and when the CLP's organised their own the party HQ ordered them cancelled.
And that ladies and gents, is how you tell people that you're not interested in them...
HoratioCuthbert
Deep seated inconsequence
Exactly, being a “middle class refugees welcome banner” sort myself i should have been “innately remain”. But this isn’t where I ended up.
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