The 2019 General Election

[SpookyFrank]

Oh we don't want to advise people not to boil their political opponents alive because that advice will be rejected.

But we wouldn't want to reject taking their money on such trivial grounds, oh no.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Not a strategic point this, just about politics and fairness in general, but surely we/'the left' should want an overhaul of immigration rules - freedom of movement (unless you are homeless etc) within europe while enforcing hard borders around europe to deny desperate and vulnerable people sanctuary doesn't sound like something I would want to maintain

 

[B.I.G]

Not a strategic point this, just about politics and fairness in general, but surely we/'the left' should want an overhaul of immigration rules - freedom of movement (unless you are homeless etc) within europe while enforcing hard borders around europe to deny desperate and vulnerable people sanctuary doesn't sound like something I would want to maintain

LOL @ lexit.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Not an open borders position this, open borders is a nonsense without a dramatic closing of wealth gap across the world, but I would rather a system that didn't allow freedom of movement or whatever we call it based on origin or nationality, or social background/economic power fwiw, but on need

 

[Proper Tidy]

LOL @ lexit.

Oh ok, so it's bad to think immigration should be based on fairness to migrants than on which countries a state has trade deals with, ok sound

 

[treelover]

Oh thanks for this! I was really keen to know Maajid Nawaz's take on the result.

LIb Dump.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Not a strategic point this, just about politics and fairness in general, but surely we/'the left' should want an overhaul of immigration rules - freedom of movement (unless you are homeless etc) within europe while enforcing hard borders around europe to deny desperate and vulnerable people sanctuary doesn't sound like something I would want to maintain

Sure. But removing the right of free movement around that larger area doesn't help those not from that area. In fact, what we have seen with the toxic immigration debate is that, for those already here, things have got tougher for all of them, regardless of where they are from.

It's not fair that you punch me and don't punch them.

Oh, ok, I'll punch both of you. That better?

The UK's recent dismal record in taking in refugees (despite being one of the countries whose foreign policy has helped to create many of those refugees) had nothing to do with free movement in the EU, and you can bet that the situation will either remain the same or get worse once the tories have removed free movement (if/when they manage it). Anti-EU immigration can't be separated from just a general anti-immigration position. And it's left us in a very sorry place right now.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Sure. But removing the right of free movement around that larger area doesn't help those not from that area. In fact, what we have seen with the toxic immigration debate is that, for those already here, things have got tougher for all of them, regardless of where they are from.

It's not fair that you punch me and don't punch them.

Oh, ok, I'll punch both of you. That better?

The UK's recent dismal record in taking in refugees (despite being one of the countries whose foreign policy has helped to create many of those refugees) had nothing to do with free movement in the EU, and you can bet that the situation will either remain the same or get worse once the tories have removed free movement (if/when they manage it). Anti-EU immigration can't be separated from just a general anti-immigration position. And it's left us in a very sorry place right now.

Yeah I agree with all that, but labour - and beyond labour - could have taken a position that wasn't retreat to the above and also wasn't defending the deeply unfair and brutal immigration policy of the EU

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yeah I agree with all that, but labour - and beyond labour - could have taken a position that wasn't retreat to the above and also wasn't defending the deeply unfair and brutal immigration policy of the EU

Yes. that's dangerously close to 'radical remain'. Pretty much my position through all this fwiw.

Labour conceded the May argument that the brexit vote had to mean new immigration controls. imo, as I said above, that inevitably left them in a corner from which they had to promise to land more punches. I think it was a terrible decision.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Yes. that's dangerously close to 'radical remain'. Pretty much my position through all this fwiw.

Labour conceded the May argument that the brexit vote had to mean new immigration controls. imo, as I said above, that inevitably left them in a corner from which they had to promise to land more punches. I think it was a terrible decision.

Coulda would shoulda of course but could have (should have imo) been a leave position

 

[Azrael]

Don't think I quite agree with that. Norway +, in the form of 'Common Market II', came about as close as anything last year to winning the support of parliament. If Labour had advocated that from the start, it might have found some tough going initially, but May's deal would still have failed in just the way it did, and then Labour would have been left in a vastly improved position.

I say the above partly with the benefit of hindsight, but there was always a strong moral case for something akin to Norway + - 'leave the EU but stay in EFTA' reflects a referendum split nearly 50:50 with no detail of what any brexit might look like much more accurately than any other form of brexit.

imo Labour made the biggest mistake tactically by going along with May's assertion that the referendum result demanded new immigration controls (these are also new emigration controls, of course, something that is all too rarely pointed out). It didn't. Immigration wasn't on the ballot paper. Ed Milliband made the same mistake in bowing to tory pressure to bang on about immigration. Concede that this is a source of the UK's social ills and you already concede a great deal more on all kinds of areas to the right.

Still might not have worked, of course, but it might have avoided the ludicrous situation in which Labour contrived to find itself the party hardest hit by the mess of brexit, a mess created entirely by the Tory party.

Couldn’t agree more about Labour’s failure to challenge anti-immigrant rhetoric, and they should certainly have advocated Norway from the off.

As for its odds of success, it was likely too late by early 2019 and the indicative votes: continuity Remain loathe Norway; Labour leavers won’t touch anything that doesn’t allow draconian immigration controls; and most Tories who could stomach the EEA were put off by the customs union bolt-on.

Still, I wouldn’t be surprised if we see it back in some form: as you say, emigration controls aren’t well known, and several leavers have reacted with horror when they learn of them. A few thousand voters screaming about delays at airports and not being able to retire to Spain and the conversation changes fast.

 

[MickiQ]

Coulda would shoulda of course but could have (should have imo) been a leave position

Don't think so, Labour were always going to be facing a massive problem whichever position they took, they were appealing to 2 major groups of voters, The poorer working class voters in solid Labour seats who are also pretty solid Leave and the youth vote who were attracted to the initial "Break the Mould, Let's try Something New" approach that Corbyn seemed to offer. This vote is equally solid Remain.
Which is why Labour came up with their hideous Sit on The Fence mashup that in the end appealed to no-one, it was a bad idea but in fairness I don't think there was any other option for them.
Labour's best hope was to get the conversation away from Brexit all together and onto other issues and that they largely failed to do.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Labour's best hope was to get the conversation away from Brexit all together and onto other issues and that they largely failed to do.

Yep. Totally this. It was the only hope I had that Labour would do well (by which I simply mean prevent an overall tory majority). But it didn't work. Clearly it all did boil down to brexit in the areas that mattered, and 'Get Brexit Done' won it. For all that all of us are saying that we would have liked to have seen, that might always have been the case - even if Labour had committed to a 'soft' brexit all along, given the anti-immigrant message of the tories.

The most depressing aspect of that is that the tories were nakedly racist and xenophobic with the specific goal of winning over a significant number of Labour leavers, or at least getting them to vote Brexit Party or stay at home. Johnson turned himself into Farage. And it worked. That depresses the hell out of me.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Blair now looks exactly like the Steve Bell cartoon of himself. Which fits in nicely with his descent into delusional self-parody.

 

[Pickman's model]

Blair now looks exactly like the Steve Bell cartoon of himself. Which fits in nicely with his descent into delusional self-parody.

He looks more like a lizard every day

 

[Proper Tidy]

Don't think so, Labour were always going to be facing a massive problem whichever position they took, they were appealing to 2 major groups of voters, The poorer working class voters in solid Labour seats who are also pretty solid Leave and the youth vote who were attracted to the initial "Break the Mould, Let's try Something New" approach that Corbyn seemed to offer. This vote is equally solid Remain.
Which is why Labour came up with their hideous Sit on The Fence mashup that in the end appealed to no-one, it was a bad idea but in fairness I don't think there was any other option for them.
Labour's best hope was to get the conversation away from Brexit all together and onto other issues and that they largely failed to do.

People aren't innately leave or remain, they take those positions for reasons. The 'youth vote' (not solid remain fwiw, plenty of younger activist types in labour who were leave) took that position because of the leave on offer.

 

[SpookyFrank]

He looks more like his true self every day

FFY

 

[Pickman's model]

Blair now looks exactly like the Steve Bell cartoon of himself. Which fits in nicely with his descent into delusional self-parody.

All Blair needed to do to prevent brexit happening was to campaign in favour of it. He's more toxic than corbyn

 

[Pickman's model]

FFY

Yeh like his true self, like a lizard, two sides of the same debased coin

 

[Shechemite]

That side parting is worrying

 

[Pickman's model]

That side parting is worrying

And look at those dead eyes

 

[SpookyFrank]

Not a strategic point this, just about politics and fairness in general, but surely we/'the left' should want an overhaul of immigration rules - freedom of movement (unless you are homeless etc) within europe while enforcing hard borders around europe to deny desperate and vulnerable people sanctuary doesn't sound like something I would want to maintain

That's going to be tricky when the narrative ever since the days of Ed Miliband has been 'Labour needs to get more racist to win back the working class voters'.

 

[mauvais]

Blair now looks exactly like the Steve Bell cartoon of himself. Which fits in nicely with his descent into delusional self-parody.

YES.

 

[Idris2002]

He looks more like a lizard every day

"Tony has risen from the grave".

 

[Pickman's model]

"Tony has risen from the grave".

Quick, where's a stake

 

[Mr Moose]

That's going to be tricky when the narrative ever since the days of Ed Miliband has been 'Labour needs to get more racist to win back the working class voters'.

Who’s narrative?

This isn’t correct, both in that since Ed’s immigration mug printing spree it’s been off the menu for Labour and that this is not what most w class people want. I don’t, you don’t and most of the people you are referring to simply want someone who they believe is on their side. Hostility to others is the way the right shows that, but equally being positive about the UK, its people, it’s prospects and what they care about/need is what is required.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

"Tony has risen from the grave".

I was thinking that, I thought surely he’s going to get to a point of greyness and deterioration that the BBC policy will change and they won’t get him to weigh in every time.

 

[Marty1]

One of those metropolitan elite remainer types calls LBC and sticks it to the leavers

 

[kebabking]

If you're interested in the absolute gangfuck that was Labours' election campaign in a random constituency...

Wyre Forest is in the West Midlands, voted leave by about 60%, and is a swing constituency - it's been Labour, independent, and Tory. Firstly there was a squabble over the candidate: local bloke got chinned off, bloke from outside with no local links got dropped in, and the sum total of the Labour campaign in this swing constituency was - 3 tweets, a couple of Facebook posts, and, err... that's it.

Yup, that was fucking it.

A CLP chair was on the radio here and he was having a right honk off about the campaign - he was saying that the regional media Comms people set up not one single interview with any of the local candidates, and when the CLP's organised their own the party HQ ordered them cancelled.

And that ladies and gents, is how you tell people that you're not interested in them...

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

People aren't innately leave or remain, they take those positions for reasons. The 'youth vote' (not solid remain fwiw, plenty of younger activist types in labour who were leave) took that position because of the leave on offer.

Exactly, being a “middle class refugees welcome banner” sort myself i should have been “innately remain”. But this isn’t where I ended up.