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Sustainability vs standard of living ... ?

parallelepipete said:
<snip> As to BG's question of what we should do when sustainability and economic progress (a.k.a. 'standard of living', not 'quality of life', am I correct?) clash:

We need to push hard to convince people to realise that (a) these two objectives will clash, inevitably, (b) without sustainability, economic progress is doomed to collapse anyway, and therefore (c) that the sooner we prioritise sustainability, the softer the landing. The net energy concept correctly states that to get the renewable economy going quickly, we need energy from fossil fuels to help product the infrastructure of renewable generation, and the longer we leave it, the scarcer and more expensive that fuel will be, and the sharper the drop in economic progress due to chronic power shortages.

But the problem appears to be the same for political ecology in its aims of substituting broad 'quality of life' measures for the current 'economic progress/GNP' as it is for socialism: how do you introduce it in one country when the immediate effect of radical environmental policies (e.g. comprehensive resource taxation, end of subsidies or grants for industry sectors like aviation or automotive) will of resource flight? There seems little prospect of an ecological (or socialist) revolution sweeping the world just yet...

(this is more thinking aloud for my own benefit at the mo, but please point out inaccuracies)

PS. What is the socialist stance on which of 'standard of living' or 'quality of life' is the preferred index of progress, and how would they measure it?
Standard of living, measured in consumption of material goods is one thing, quality of life is quite another. I think sustainability, social justice, direct democracy and something you might choose to call "quality of life" fit very well together, at least potentially.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
A couple of snarky comments on another thread prompted me to bump this one. I would be very happy to discuss the very relevant question of how the traditional left's emphasis on material progress and the very real issues of sustainability, more or less invisible to most 19th and early 20th century thinkers, are to be reconciled.

Any takers?
I would love to be able to have a synthesis of socialism and ecologism which managed to combine the best points of both. It seems to be that (as I mentioned on the 'other thread') a green philosophical basis is much more compatible with left politics than with free-marketism. But you may well need a socialist revolution to at least remove the profit motive, and create the social equality which enables people to concentrate on expanding consideration to the wider ecosystem. You would then have a more gradual but more thorough green cultural revolution.

On the other hand, given that socialism is as materialist as capitalism, would there be any incentive in a socialist society to prioritise sustainability?

Edit: just noticed your comment about party-party crap. Whoops! Let's assume I'm talking about the philosophy behind green/red politics here :)
 
My impression, and I'd be very grateful for any representative of the traditional left parties who wanted to put me right, is that communism isn't at all incompatible with sustainability, but most tradtional left notions of socialism, for example Leninist and Trotskyist visions are.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
Any takers?
We could agree with each other. ;)

What do you think about the idea of intergenerational equity? I've always thought of this as a fairly logical extension of concern for distribution in the present to concern about distribution between the now living and those to come. I know it's a problematic idea- there's massive uncertainty, no reciprocity between generations, difficulties in determing the needs of future generations, etc etc, but I don't see it as an idea that would cause much pain to the traditional left.
 
Well, I just want to get to the painful issues. I can tell there are some, but I can't really get anyone on the traditional left here to stand up for them it seems.

All I'm seeing is party vs party crap. No substantive discussion, with a couple of honourable exceptions like sihii. So I thought I'd try being an arsehole about it to see if I could provoke some sort of meaningful debate on this rather important subject.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
Come on guys, you can diss the GPEW, fine. Can you address the real issues?

The real issue is the current world population cannot be supported sustainably. (Oil is not just used for fuel for vehicles).
 
Well, I suspect the complacency (I'm being an arsehole here remember) of the traditional left in the face of those kind of brutal issues is that they think because Marx demolished Malthus, they don't need to think about that stuff.

"...this is a law of population peculiar to the capitalist mode of production; and in fact every specific historic mode of production has its own special laws of population historically valid within its limits alone. An abstract law of population exists for plants and animals only, and in so far as man has not interferred with them" (Marx:631- 632).
 
What I want to know is where the people who are so keen to diss the Green Party, and so vocal about that stuff are; when they are invited to discuss the more substantial issues of how we are to achieve sustainability, or if we fail, how we are to deal with the really fucking awful consequences of failure?
 
Oh hang on. They're down the pub aren't they? Give it an hour or so and maybe we'll get some sort of response to these rather vital questions.
 
OK, now you're back from the pub. If you can snipe at the greens on that other thread, surely you must have something to say to this?

The transition to a renewable-based economy is not going to be easy. We shall need all the oil and gas we can get to fuel it and models show that, even then, it is going to be hard to maintain economic growth while keeping unemployment low.<snip>

A renewable-based economy is certainly possible so far as the supply side - nature - is concerned. The investment requirements are going to be formidable - greater than with nuclear power. The transition will take time and require the embodiment of much energy. To make this transition we shall need all the fossil fuels we can get. And the sooner we start the easier it will be. We certainly will have to start before it becomes 'economic' using that word in its traditional sense.
(from the link in the first post)

Or are stupid party vs party games all you're good for?
 
Picking up from the by-election thread some interesting comments from Herman.
herman said:
<snip> So the two movements need to come together, in terms of practical activity and in terms of developing ideas. The class nature of the two movements would probably make a synthesis difficult but common goals can be achieved through initially dialogue but in terms of publishing policy, discussion documents and direct action. Granted there are sections of the green movement and socialist movement who would not be able to travel such a road but they cannot be the ones allowed to frame the debate.

One immediate common goal would be for example the public ownership of rail and other forms of transportation rather than the more individualist car economy.
I can suggest some other potential goals. Food security and shelter. Both industrial food production and most of our housing stock are dependent on large fossil fuel inputs to function. Such inputs are not compatible with sustainability in the long term and alternatives need to be sought out.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
Picking up from the by-election thread some interesting comments from Herman. I can suggest some other potential goals. Food security and shelter. Both industrial food production and most of our housing stock are dependent on large fossil fuel inputs to function. Such inputs are not compatible with sustainability in the long term and alternatives need to be sought out.

Primarily the answer to the question must lie in consumer habits- when there is hunger and poverty this is primarily a question of wealth distribution (a topic I ll put aside for now as it would derail this thread too) but in terms of productivity, standards of living rising and consumption the question has to be asked - producing what?

You highlight for example the use of fossil fuels in agriculture, but I want to talk about furbies. These lovable talking cuddly toys may be a prize example of misplaced application of technology and resources. It would be wrong to place emphasis for example on emerging economies who at present may not be best placed economically to be the trailblazers in terms of alternatives and this would be wrong to pull up the drawbridge after other economies have developed on the back of full industrialisation. But back to the furbies, a large chunk of world resources go into producing items such as these with little if any social value.

While it is the case that alternatives must be found in the sectors you highlight, there are no alternatives to housing and food in themselves. There are alternatives to some of the more flippant and extravagent aspects of consumption. In a world of such inequality and stark divisions between the poorest and richest it is the plastic christmas stocking filler junk that I find most distasteful.

It is the case that fossil fuels are finite but if applied to essential sectors rather than non essential surely this more limited useage can sustain for a far longer timeframe which would provide a window for viable alternatives to be developed and implemented.
 
As far as buildings go, on a global scale they are one of the main culprits in terms of greenhouse gas emissions. Architects are generally not inclined to think about energy efficiency, and many public buildings in particular would be uninhabitable steel and glass hells, without vast air-conditioning and heating systems. Speculative builders, driven by the profit motive, have in the UK and elsewhere, created housing stock that is largely unable to function as effective shelter without significant oil inputs, here mostly for heating, elsewhere also for cooling (e.g most of the southern US states)

One probable consequence of this is that our existing UK housing stock in its present form, is not sustainable. In addition, particularly in the post-war period there has been an increasing tendency to use materials of high embodied energy that cannot be worked locally or with simple hand tools.

There are also arguments to suggest that much of it is in the wrong place.

As food, shelter and transport are among the key sustainability issues, the question arises of how to regenerate our buildings to become sustainable.

For me this means that they should ideally require energy inputs for neither heating nor cooling to any great extent and where such inputs are required, they should as far as possible be produced locally based on solar energy flows, rather than piped in from some massive chunk of capital investment a distance away. The materials should be as far as possible low-energy and should be workable locally and with simple hand tools wherever possible.

The question then arises about where the investment to make the implied massive changes would come from, whether to modify existing buildings, e.g. by strapping on insulation and energy systems or to recycle their materials elsewhere and how best to achieve any of this with market forces working against it.
 
herman said:
<snip> It is the case that fossil fuels are finite but if applied to essential sectors rather than non essential surely this more limited useage can sustain for a far longer timeframe which would provide a window for viable alternatives to be developed and implemented.
No argument with that. It happens like that because we are ruled by the market and if a demand for useless and even harmful stuff can be created, that's what'll be produced for as long as it's profitable. This is what happens when resource deployment issues are left in the hands of markets.

Captial optimises for growth. If we look at mathematical models of population in nature, we (arguably) see that selection pressures optimise for growth only at low density. Once they reach high population density they tend instead to optimise for efficient resource usage. While I'm always extremely wary of applying evolutionary theory to human populations, this does rather seem to be what's happening right now. It suggests to me that historical conditions that created grow or die capitalism are in the process of some kind of phase transition. This is very much a speculation, but possibly an enlightening one.

In any case, my guess is that the best place to find a meeting of minds between sustainability and socialism is with respect to control of the means of production for our basic survival needs first, because that's just where ecological pressures on the mass of people are most likely to fall the hardest.

Until those pressures start to bite, it's easy to dismiss ecological concerns as something for educated middle-class individuals with the leisure to play games. When people are struggling to eat and stay warm, that changes.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
As far as buildings go, on a global scale they are one of the main culprits in terms of greenhouse gas emissions. Architects are generally not inclined to think about energy efficiency, and many public buildings in particular would be uninhabitable steel and glass hells, without vast air-conditioning and heating systems. Speculative builders, driven by the profit motive, have in the UK and elsewhere, created housing stock that is largely unable to function as effective shelter without significant oil inputs, here mostly for heating, elsewhere also for cooling (e.g most of the southern US states)

One probable consequence of this is that our existing UK housing stock in its present form, is not sustainable. In addition, particularly in the post-war period there has been an increasing tendency to use materials of high embodied energy that cannot be worked locally or with simple hand tools.

There are also arguments to suggest that much of it is in the wrong place.

As food, shelter and transport are among the key sustainability issues, the question arises of how to regenerate our buildings to become sustainable.

For me this means that they should ideally require energy inputs for neither heating nor cooling to any great extent and where such inputs are required, they should as far as possible be produced locally based on solar energy flows, rather than piped in from some massive chunk of capital investment a distance away. The materials should be as far as possible low-energy and should be workable locally and with simple hand tools wherever possible.

The question then arises about where the investment to make the implied massive changes would come from, whether to modify existing buildings, e.g. by strapping on insulation and energy systems or to recycle their materials elsewhere and how best to achieve any of this with market forces working against it.


I am not sure the recycling of building materials is a viable starter, the key surely has to be looking forward rather than knocking down and rebuilding what we have at present, with simple hand tools or otherwise. Now building modiication is possibly a more practical alternative.

The only defence against market forces and to achieve any of the change you highlight will have to in the immediate term at least be via the very state that has at its core the aim of defending those market forces and the local authorities who are increasingly undemocratic and distant.

It would have to draw in planning law- that sustainability is written in as a central tenet. Since the furbies question will not be answered by the market which is geared toward delivering commodities to market for profit I will have to raise the spectre of state planning to direct what resources we have to the social good rather than producing crap. Since none of the main parties are especially enamored with state planning or the social function of the state (and given that there is unlikely to be a major shift leftward within the state within the immediate future) then at least campaigning to get sustainability to run central to planning law.

I suspect that free marketeers are opposed to even something as minimal as a tweaking of planning law but it is something that I am sure could be accomodated if pressed hard enough.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
No argument with that. It happens like that because we are ruled by the market and if a demand for useless and even harmful stuff can be created, that's what'll be produced for as long as it's profitable. This is what happens when resource deployment issues are left in the hands of markets.

Captial optimises for growth. If we look at mathematical models of population in nature, we (arguably) see that selection pressures optimise for growth only at low density. Once they reach high population density they tend instead to optimise for efficient resource usage. While I'm always extremely wary of applying evolutionary theory to human populations, this does rather seem to be what's happening right now. It suggests to me that historical conditions that created grow or die capitalism are in the process of some kind of phase transition. This is very much a speculation, but possibly an enlightening one.

In any case, my guess is that the best place to find a meeting of minds between sustainability and socialism is with respect to control of the means of production for our basic survival needs first, because that's just where ecological pressures on the mass of people are most likely to fall the hardest.

Until those pressures start to bite, it's easy to dismiss ecological concerns as something for educated middle-class individuals with the leisure to play games. When people are struggling to eat and stay warm, that changes.


Can't disagree with that. But in terms of controls of the means of production we have to be careful how we define this in terms of striking the right balance between state, local and co operative sectors. Technology can aid in planning but changing the ownership of the MOP does not necessarily of itself necessarily answer the questions you pose. It may answer those regarding the un even distribution of wealth but without the right balance it could turn us all into greater consumers of resources. This is where local co operatives come into play.
 
The problem I have with expecting the state to solve any of this is that it rarely seems to be able to act rationally. The only examples I can think of are the Tokugawa shogunate and more recently President Baleguar of the Dominican Republic's very effective action (cutting the heads off and shooting rogue loggers) to prevent deforestation and Cuba's use of urban agriculture to mitiagate the effects of the special period (the latter being a very interesting example of state and local action working well together)

By far the greater number of examples I can bring to mind of effective action have been based on decisions taken at a community level and actions that can be taken autonomously at that level. This is one of the reasons for my preference for using low-tech materials and simple hand tools wherever you can. It lowers the bar to effective and autonomous action in terms of capital investment and increases the impact of labour over capital.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
The problem I have with expecting the state to solve any of this is that it rarely seems to be able to act rationally. The only examples I can think of are the Tokugawa shogunate and more recently President Baleguar of the Dominican Republic's very effective action to prevent deforestation and Cuba's use of urban agriculture to mitiagate the effects of the special period (the latter being a very interesting example of state and local action working well together)

By far the greater number of examples I can bring to mind of effective action have been based on decisions taken at a community level and actions that can be taken autonomously at that level. This is one of the reasons for my preference for using low-tech materials and simple hand tools wherever you can. It lowers the bar to effective and autonomous action in terms of capital investment and increases the impact of labour over capital.

Just for a devils advocate thingy- lowering the technology surely does not necessarily lower the energy consumption but changes its form.

We could use jcb's lorries and cranes for example and throw up houses over a matter of weeks or we could take months or many hands with low tech methods thus increasigng the ratio of other energy consumed per house bnuilt. Builders after all have to eat. The number of meals consumed (and other resources such as heating, electricity, gas) by builders per house built would increase if we use low tech methods.

As much as I hate the drudge of working in fordist style production it is certainly far more efficient than what went before- and surely efficiency is key, whether on fordist terms or developing more efficient production methods.
 
herman said:
Can't disagree with that. But in terms of controls of the means of production we have to be careful how we define this in terms of striking the right balance between state, local and co operative sectors. Technology can aid in planning but changing the ownership of the MOP does not necessarily of itself necessarily answer the questions you pose. It may answer those regarding the un even distribution of wealth but without the right balance it could turn us all into greater consumers of resources. This is where local co operatives come into play.
Yes, I think local cooperatives are an excellent mechanism for this kind of thing. Small enough and flat enough in hierarchy that managers cannot escape the consquences of their actions, in the way that state burecrats and leaders frequently do.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
Yes, I think local cooperatives are an excellent mechanism for this kind of thing. Small enough and flat enough in hierarchy that managers cannot escape the consquences of their actions, in the way that state burecrats and leaders frequently do.

This incidentally is why I am a fan of central planning - the idea of competing co operatives for me is one that runs counter to the spirit and potential of co operation. Thus the role of the state in directing co operative activity.

I think you highlighted some link for me some time ago regarding Cuba and agriculture that while presenting local solutions clearly had an eye on addressing a nationwide problem.
 
herman said:
Just for a devils advocate thingy- lowering the technology surely does not necessarily lower the energy consumption but changes its form.

We could use jcb's lorries and cranes for example and throw up houses over a matter of weeks or we could take months or many hands with low tech methods thus increasigng the ratio of other energy consumed per house bnuilt. Builders after all have to eat. The number of meals consumed (and other resources such as heating, electricity, gas) by builders per house built would increase if we use low tech methods.
Well, the energy consumption of the builders depends greatly on how you're feeding them. If you're feeding them from a supermarket, the energy cost of the food is about 10 units of oil energy for one unit of food energy. Having said that, and leaving the issues around food energy to one side for now, I was mainly talking about the embodied energy of industrial building materials vs traditional or modern but ecological ones. Some materials like plastics, metals and solid state stuff like controller chips and PV cells may have a very high embodied energy, but are so useful that as long as they're used in small quantities, they're a net benefit.

Here's a breakdown of some of the relevant factors.

energy required to produce the material
CO2 emissions resulting from the materials manufacture
impact on the local environment of resource extraction (e.g. quarry pits, deforestation, oil spills, etc)
toxicity of the material.
transportation of the material during manufacture and delivery to site.
degree of pollution resulting from the material at the end of its useful life

Without going into the tedious details of the calculations (although I can on request) this makes me strongly favour local and renewable materials used to produce buildings that require very low amounts of energy input to be viable
 
herman said:
This incidentally is why I am a fan of central planning - the idea of competing co operatives for me is one that runs counter to the spirit and potential of co operation. Thus the role of the state in directing co operative activity.

I think you highlighted some link for me some time ago regarding Cuba and agriculture that while presenting local solutions clearly had an eye on addressing a nationwide problem.
No argument that certain things require central planning of some sort. The trick is to mitigate the known problems of a distant manager personally unaffected by their bad decisions.

I think the Parecon guys have some interesting ideas on how to do central planning from the bottom-up as it were.
 
herman said:
<snip>As much as I hate the drudge of working in fordist style production it is certainly far more efficient than what went before- and surely efficiency is key, whether on fordist terms or developing more efficient production methods.
We should be clear here about what we mean by "efficient"

Industrial methods are efficient in financial terms, and then only as long as oil is cheap enough that labour costs are the main drag on profit.

In terms of energy efficiency, the picture looks rather different. This is easier to show for food, but it is also almost certainly true for buildings.
 
One problem I forsee is the continued tendency for state solutions to centralise around high-capital investment projects. Massive wind farms are a model that is primarily optimised for profitable investment, not sustainability.

Another excellent example is nuclear power. This not only centralises to a very high degree, because of the absolutely enormous capital investments required, but also because of its inherent dangers, tends to foster yet more militarisation of society in the form of unaccountable and secretive security forces and the sponsorship of truly appalling state repression in many of the places the fuel comes from.

In other words, it's a technical fix that looks appealing to big bureacracies, capitalists and repression freaks, but is not necessarily in the best interests of the mass of the population in terms of resource allocation.
 
Talking of Cuba, here's a slightly rose-tinted summary of their response to losing the unsustainable Soviet energy subsidies (in the form of oil, and oil generated fertiliser and pesticides) that let them run an industrial agriculture model.

http://www.foodfirst.org/node/1208

... and here's a couple of more detailed and quantitative accounts.

http://www.idrc.ca/en/ev-31574-201-1-DO_TOPIC.html

http://www.cityfarmer.org/cubaThesis.html

I think this is a very compelling picture of state and grassroots working together. The state acted as an enabler, providing land and via universities, scientific assistance, but almost all of the work and a lot of the fine-tuning of the approach was done on a local community level, in towns and countryside

They used markets (actual local markets, not unaccountable financial ones) where it made sense to do so, cooperatives where that worked best and state planning where expensive shared resources like land and biology labs were required.
 
So going back to your question about potentially sharable goals Herman, I think a good start would be to agree to fight for: low-energy housing, local food security and effective public transport for all, irrespective of wealth.

That'd cost a fuck of a lot of money to do properly, but would be well worth doing, both in terms of sustainability, and also quality of life. It would also piss off: agribusiness, property developers, supermarkets, the construction industry, the nuclear lobby, the oil lobby, the car lobby and the CBI just for starters. Are these goals that the traditional left could get behind however?

The amount of investment, according to the models in the stuff I quoted at the head of this thread, would be such that it'd tend to reduce economic growth and might even increase unemployment, at least during transition.

I suspect you're not exactly "traditional left" but I'm very keen to hear from those who are, and who seem so happy to take pot-shots at the various green parties on these issues.

Do they have anything to contribute besides snotty remarks about middle-class hippies?
 
Good thread. I think an important issue which effects both is the distance that people currently travel to work. In the long term I think that the situation we currently have needs to be changed so that people are a lot closer to the places they work in, ideally in the immediate vicinity, rooted in a more localised community.

I think we're long way off though.
 
Monkeygrinder's Organ said:
Good thread. I think an important issue which effects both is the distance that people currently travel to work. In the long term I think that the situation we currently have needs to be changed so that people are a lot closer to the places they work in, ideally in the immediate vicinity, rooted in a more localised community.

I think we're long way off though.
Kropotkin has an interesting model in Fields, Factories and Workshops which he's proposing as a concept for an anarchist society, but which appears to work pretty damn well in the context of a sustainable one. He's proposing communities small enough to permit direct democracy, with their own food systems and light industry.

If you add local sustainable energy systems, I think it updates pretty well.

It doesn't necessarily imply eco-villages in the middle of nowhere either, as we can see from the Cuban sustainability models above, you can do most of that stuff perfectly well in an urban environment. (up to a point anyway)
 
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