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Sustainability vs standard of living ... ?

catch said:
Devolution, to me at least, suggests the national state voluntarily giving up power to regional or local representative units (national assemblies, regional assemblies, borough councils etc.)

I am not sure states voluntarily to give up powers to devolved units without the pressure from below. If anything governments in the general sense (but not always) have a tendency to grab powers for the centre rather than distribute them amongst groups over which they have less direct control.

It is through pressure (from below) that central state will relinquish powers to the borough or regions and not out of generosity. It is indeed a reformist measure but that is not enough reason to oppose devolution per se. I supported the parliament for wales campaign (instead we got a more limited assembly) not because it was revolutionary, but that is removed powers from the central state even if only in a very limited sense.

I think the whole problem with this discussion is it is switching between what can be done now in concrete terms and a long term strategy and aim- devolution is a practical achievable goal now, building alternative structures and reaching a critical mass for change may take a little longer.

Incidentally despite limited devolution to Wales and Scotland the general tendency has been a centralising one with the abolition of town councils and borough councils in favour of more remote unitary authority.

catch said:
This was directed at Bernie, but since he's away for a week.

I disagree entirely with this. For communism and sustainability to have any chance, it needs to be seen as a tendency in the working class to be developed, rather than a future society to be moved towards, or worse the preserve of a few intellectuals who need to deliver it to the rest of humanity. communists should be acting in their own communities and workplaces as members of those communities and workplaces - so that any movement towards real change is seen as a natural part of human activity - something necessary and practical. Clandestine groups are easy to marginalise, villify and repress. Revolutionaries working in the open , hopefully enabling their neighbours and co-workers to achieve real gains, will be both more effective and harder to take out than a few people working behind closed doors. This doesn't mean you have to run around saying "I'm the only communist in the village", it just means trying to apply revolutionary theory to everyday situations - emphasising self-organised and communist tendencies wherever possible. I think this is what Bernie means by legitimacy. If you can demonstrate these ideas have the potential for real material and/or ecological gains, then state repression isn't just going to be against a few "extremists" it's going to be against the majority of people you live and work with - hopefully by that point the majority of the population. That's a much more difficult and fundamental challenge to the state than a secret organisation.

Was not trying to imply that working clandestine is a desirable tactic, after all where it is necessary the situation is already less favourable. However there are circumstances where it becomes a necessity- it is political circumstance that defines how an organisation has to organise to be most effective. Making a fetish of operating in a clandestine manner in inappropriate circumstances would be as much of a nonsense as operating openly in less favourable circumstances. I only brought the subject up because if a fundamental shift is to come about then the reaction by the state could be severe enough to warrant clandestine operation at least on an organisation level.
 
herman said:
It is through pressure (from below) that central state will relinquish powers to the borough or regions and not out of generosity. It is indeed a reformist measure but that is not enough reason to oppose devolution per se. I supported the parliament for wales campaign (instead we got a more limited assembly) not because it was revolutionary, but that is removed powers from the central state even if only in a very limited sense.

I think it depends what you mean by support. Some of those regional bodies actually suck powers upwards from town/borough/parish councils rather than downwards from Westminster. They also cost plenty to run whilst not being able to do very much - creating even more levels of bureaucracy. I'm not particularly against Welsh/Scottish and regional assemblies, but I don't see any reason to support them (certainly not practically) either - they're still parliamentary (even if neutered) bodies with no connection to genuine democracy.

building alternative structures and reaching a critical mass for change may take a little longer.

A good reason to get started now.

I only brought the subject up because if a fundamental shift is to come about then the reaction by the state could be severe enough to warrant clandestine operation at least on an organisation level.

Don't disagree particularly with that, but Bernie's suggested urban gardening and small scale energy sources can't be clandestine.
 
catch said:
Don't disagree particularly with that, but Bernie's suggested urban gardening and small scale energy sources can't be clandestine.

Nor would I suggest they need be- it is only where the ideas challenge fundamentally the status quo that they are likely to come in for any treatment that would warrant such an apporach.

It is not inconceivable incidentally that such an approach becomes state policy if in response to a crisis- it was an approach that became necessary in Cuba during the Special Period and in Britain during WWII.

If food security becomes a national security issue then I could conceive of a time where it is not one opposed by the state but encouraged and actively supported by the state.

To get this discussion right back on track the article posted above by Bernie, is an extremely well argued attack on the neo-Malthusians. It is correct when it states that Malthusian ideas rear their head time and again. The danger is that those highlighting peak oil are not above falling into the same traps, with an arithmetic approach to oil and food supply. This is a danger that Bernie seems clearly aware, in seeking social context and class analysis to complement his understanding of the dangers of the threat of oil supply to food production. After all, the produce consumed by a society is not consumed in equal amounts by all. Not necessarily just because of a conscious decision to consume less but because of the inequal distribution of wealth.

While on some levels the rich may not necessarily consume more oil than the poor on the level of capital accumulation they clearly do.
 
herman said:
<snip> Maybe we should consider some of the standard of living side of the question...
Maybe we should. I just got back and I'm a bit wrecked right now, but I agree that we should get into that next.
 
OK. Here's a starter on standard of living.

It seems to me that when people are expressing dissatisfaction with their standard of living, they're usually doing it in reference to some image they have of how things should be. That might be by comparing themselves to some other class, and feeling relatively deprived. It might also, especially in our culture, be by comparison to some media image of standards of living.

I think it's worth making a distinction between this kind of deprivation and absolute deprivation, for example lack of adequate food, shelter and so on.

Most of the time, when I'm thinking about sustainability issues, I'm focussing on the latter as more fundamental, partly because if you can't feed and house people sustainably you haven't got sustainability and partly because I think there's an interesting synergy with the ability of capital to impose work.

I think though, that when you're talking about the potential for conflict between standard of living and sustainability it's probably useful to consider this distinction and make sure you know which type of deprivation you're talking about.

I think it's also really important to be able to propagate a vision of how things could be sustainably, to which people can compare the present unfavourably. If their only standard of comparison is people doing slightly better than them under capitalism as portrayed by the corporate media, of course a lot of them are going to get upset with a vision of the future where they can't have all the furbies and luxury cars that they want. You need a better vision IMO.

That's why I find the very positive and pragmatic utopian visions of people like Christopher Alexander, William Morris (despite being a bit lacking in the pragmatic dept sometimes) and Kropotkin really useful.

Thing is though, visions like that work for me. I'm not at all sure they work for everybody, especially in a world of media illusions like ours. So the first step is probably going to be to find out where the struggle for sustainability and against capital might emerge, and what visions of the future that might lead to, for an extremely broad range of class interests.

One possibility that occurs to me is that this lies somewhere in the massive disappointment at not realising the expectations set by the neo-liberal vision, as propagated by the mass media, which seems likely when the more or less inevitable next recession arrives.
 
catch said:
<snip> I think this is what Bernie means by legitimacy. If you can demonstrate these ideas have the potential for real material and/or ecological gains, then state repression isn't just going to be against a few "extremists" it's going to be against the majority of people you live and work with - hopefully by that point the majority of the population. That's a much more difficult and fundamental challenge to the state than a secret organisation.
Yep, that's sort of what I was getting at above.
 
Incidentally, there's a thread going on over here where I've just been suggesting a possible practical approach for attaining at least some of the fundamentals of sustainability. One of the interesting things about it for me, is that it would potentially do exactly what we've been discussing here and work towards the achievement of sustainable settlements by means of a process involving a number of small interlocking non-profit organisations.

The end result (assuming it's workable) would be to start with a relativly small amount of money and land, take small groups of families out of the towns and into a network of eco-village type settlements on the peri-urban fringe. It would do so without borrowing at interest, would leave the families owning their homes within such communities after a couple of decades at a fraction of the usual cost, but would be set up to resist speculative investment. It would also seed a number of similar communities at intervals of a few years.

The main trick, assuming you can find the seed money and the land to get it going, is to do things slowly enough, with simple enough materials wherever possible, using the labour of the participants to a great enough extent, that you can cut the banks and industrial commodities that require their loans right out of the system thereby avoiding paying huge amounts of interest over long periods of time.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
OK. Here's a starter on standard of living.

It seems to me that when people are expressing dissatisfaction with their standard of living, they're usually doing it in reference to some image they have of how things should be. That might be by comparing themselves to some other class, and feeling relatively deprived. It might also, especially in our culture, be by comparison to some media image of standards of living.

I think it's worth making a distinction between this kind of deprivation and absolute deprivation, for example lack of adequate food, shelter and so on.

Most of the time, when I'm thinking about sustainability issues, I'm focussing on the latter as more fundamental, partly because if you can't feed and house people sustainably you haven't got sustainability and partly because I think there's an interesting synergy with the ability of capital to impose work.

There are problems with the emphasis on sustainability when addressing the question of absolute poverty.

When we think of absolute poverty in the UK we maybe talking at most about thousands of people while internationally this may describe millions or even billions of people. Where in the Uk the causes of absolute poverty may be attributed to a failure in social policy, but internationally we are not talking of a failure of social policy (for the policy is successful in achieving what it sets out to achieve) but a systematic approach to economy, trade, public ownership etc at the various treaty conferences, held under various auspices and the imposition of deliberately neo-liberal policy at the hands of bodies such as the IMF etc.

It is no co incidence that some of the worlds poorest live in what are, or potentially are, some of the most resource rich countries worldwide.

Mechanisms such as transfer pricing are used to remove commodities from countries at way below market value almost free of taxation and repatriating profits while an imposed laissez faire agenda restricts governments ability to even probe into these very issues.

These are not essentially questions of sustainability (or otherwise) but of global trade policy. These are questions that while being grappled with by the anti globalisation movement were muddied by the paternalistic Geldof and his cynical Live 8 exercise.

This raises the issue of trade- some advocate fair trade while some in the higher echelons deem more freetrade as the solution. While some on the left balk at the idea of free trade as a solution while it has been imposed on the developing world, it is on tariffs in the industrial north and subsidies that further attention needs to be given. Such is the world we live in.

In a post I made regarding issues for the working class one of the key issues for me was "having a voice", not because as a well off working class individual it is a luxury that I can emphasise this over say shelter, food etc but because as a working class individual who while living most of the time uncomfortably close to destituion reads far too much. I am aware of the fact that decisions taken in trade talks thousands of miles away, and frequently closer to home will push me closer to the breadline while prescribing death through malnutrition and preventable disease to millions of others who are relatively far more poor than I.

Decisions on issues and diverse as patents and the marketisation of public service impact on billions across the globe to the detriment of the poor and to the benefit of TNC's.

The solution to the end of poverty however does not lie in sustainable agriculture or localisation, nor in more labour intensive production methods.

While such approaches may be successful (and I have read of frequent examples internationally) place this against the onslaught of neo liberalism and they can only offer partial solutions in themselves. The real challenge is to the movements active in forcing change- to press hard enough for change at the highest level.

Why I would argue that a sustainable approach while maybe desirable in the longer term provides no solution to the immediate grinding poverty is that even where local approaches are necessary these have to be based on production of supluses for the purpose of trade, to fund health programmes etc a square meal after all will be no consolation to someone dying of malaria.

Don't get me wrong here, I am not for one minute arguing for unsustainability- that would be a nonsense. After all unsustainable agriculture could provide short term benefits, until of course it is no longer sustainable, not necessarily a generation later but in a far shorter timeframe. Paticularly here (amongst other examples) I have in mind deforestation of the rain forest for agriculture. This approach has proved in practice a failure as aside from issues such as climate change and hazards such as flooding the soil becomes barren and frankly unusable in such a short time.

While sustainability issue anywhere in the world in the longer term may well be one that needs address the deliberate impoverishment through privatisation and skewed trade is a far more pressing issue. While this has to be coupled with practices such as subsistence agriculture over practices such as intensive farming for export (which over time becomes counterproductive as the more is produced the more the market price falls) this cannot be seen as a long terms solution. For us to advocate such an approach in the industrial north to the peoples of the developing economies of the south is to in effect say- "we are industrialised, we have food, shelter, cars, mobile phones and bloody furbies. You desire not these things, raise yourselves up and be peasants! So it is deemed, Geldof has spoken."

To take this further; the availability of credit to the much of the post colonial developing world was in itself a poisoned challice and rather than forge a new era of independence in effect bound the south to the north in newer ways- neo-colonialism. Debt servicing forced nations to depend on aid, while the IMF ordered the privatisation of services and the dismantling of non profitable infrastructure with an impact on health, education, communications, transport and more.

Of course where the IMF has impoverished peoples have become rightly pissed off, during the cold war this led to nationalist movements and national liberation movements that began meeting with some success, the antidote by the North keen to protect its interests has been for tied aid (tied to arms and the tools of oppression).

Much has been made about the corruption of certain leaders in the third world- these leaders are not necessarily corrupt as such. Forced between a population who seek improvements and an IMF who threaten bankruptcy should such demands be met they have often fallen into line behind doner (arms trader) states- the same states who in public may blame poverty on the corruption of the politian while at the same time funding and arming these governments, knowing which side their bread is buttered on.

So in terms of answering the questions of absolute and relative poverty it is a far more vexing question than can be answered simply with sustainability and localism. Other states who have answered such questions differently have met with some successes- Cuba following state socialism, South Korea by industrialisation, state intervention and a degree of protectionism in key sectors.

Sustainability questions and issues are still extremely important and need answering but for much of the world taking control of our lives has to mean the taking back control of our natural resources and manufacturing capacity- a course incidentally being charted today by the Venezuelan government as they take over idle land, resources and manufacturing often not on the terms of wholesale nationalisation but part state/part worker owenrship.

When democracy is taken back the appropriate forums for the debate of and implementation of policies vis-a-vis sustainability can surely lead to a shift in direction on the other hand for much of the developing world it is easy to see the attraction in leaving the land to work in manufacturing in TNC owned factories even where wages are barely subsistence.

Incidentally I read an interesting piece a while back on an NGO website (forget which) which argued a case against boycotts of the product of child labour. Its easy from here up North do take such a pious stand against such an exploitative approach but in the absence of a safety net may be a course that proves counterproductive- how do we answer a child who when asked by his or her family where the money is this week announces that a boycott by liberal do-gooders up north has resulted in the loss of work.

I know I ve jumped all over the place here in talking about standard of living and hopefully got in the points I meant to cover- debt, aid, transfer pricing, industialisation, globalisation, IMF but I may have forgot to put my oligatory reference to furbies in the post.

I have just noticed that this is a long post so I'd be better of leaving the issue of poverty, the media, mobility and aspiration in the Uk to another post-
I might even throw something controvertial into the mix by considering how industrialisation need not be an anathema to sustainability and how notions of labour intensity as a solution may turn out to be a luxury for the already heavily burdened working class that proves to be one straw too many for the back.

Hope this contribution is useful to the debate and that it goes some way to finding a synthesis between sustainability v standard of living, after all it may well prove that the two are not exclusive to one another.
 
A couple of quick notes here 'cos I'm still waking up.

Sustainability issues interact strongly with some of the stuff you're talking about Herman. For example, most of the places where serious poverty exists alongside rich natural resources, you'll also find that the rape of those resources has made a horrible mess out of their environment and has impoverished the locals by taking away or destroying natural resources they'd depended on for thousands of years - e.g. cutting down the woodlands they used for fuel, poisoning their water supplies and eroding the soil they used for growing stuff in.

That 4th International thing Fisher_Gate provided is quite good on this stuff, showing the way sustainability issues are very often directly related to basic survival in the poorest countries of the world, and how the WTO/IMF system makes it impossible for those people to address these worsening problems.

The post war revolution in industrial agriculture technologies has also played a huge part in breaking up traditional communities and dispossessing their people to cities while making them available to work in sweatshops and so on. See e.g. http://www.eco.utexas.edu/facstaff/Cleaver/hmctechasweaponry.htm -
In examining the Green Revolution technologies within the context of the analysis presented above it would seem natural to begin with considering the political role of the final product the technologies were to produce: food grains. In general within capitalist society food is a fundamental weapon for the managers of that society. Control over food gives control over work. Basically most of us are forced to work for business as a condition for acquiring food, and this is possible only because business controls the access to food by controlling the means of producing it. But historically the development of the Green Revolution technologies can be understood far more specifically. The experience of the Rockefeller Foundation in China in the 1920s and 1930s led to the view that an increased output of food, coupled with institutional changes such as land reform, and the various components of community development, was absolutely essential in order to stabilize rural China and to undercut the growing peasant revolution. In the 1950s this understanding become generally accepted, and there was for a long time an open discussion of "rice politics" in Asia. Food was clearly recognized as a political weapon in the efforts to thwart peasant revolution in many places in Asia.

As a result of this understanding, there grew up the associated strategy of trying to raise food output so that increased availability of food would tend to undermine unrest. That strategy included both the institutional changes mentioned above, especially land reform, but also community development (of the Jimmy Yen variety), and the development of higher yielding grain crops via either selection or genetic manipulation. This history makes it very clear that from its beginning the development of the Green Revolution grains constituted mobilizing science and technology in the service of counterrevolution. From the handful of Cornell plant breeders and their students working at Nanking University in China through to the development of the International Rice Research Institute in the Philippines, the pattern of development of technology via the mobilization of skilled workers (plant breeders and the like) in order to develop a political weapon is clear. over time the rhetoric changed from the overtly political to the humanitarian, but the goal never changed. In China, with very little military technology being mobilized as backup, the agricultural work was carried on quietly within the context of building an elite and a Third Force. In postWorld War II Asia, vast amounts of military technology were mobilized during the anti-guerrilla campaigns (in Vietnam, Malaysia, Thailand, Philippines) to create the conditions under which the plant men could breed longer-term solutions to sociopolitical instability. During that period of pacification, the foundations and U.S. aid agencies carried out the kind of prerequisite investment in institution building-mainly agricultural colleges — necessary to create the local skilled labor power to carry out the development of new, higher yielding technologies. All of this was done with the aim of stabilizing the peasants in order to convert them into a pliable, available labor force--first in the fields and ultimately in the factories.
 
herman said:
<snip> Sustainability questions and issues are still extremely important and need answering but for much of the world taking control of our lives has to mean the taking back control of our natural resources and manufacturing capacity <snip>
I don't think it's possible to achieve sustainability without taking control of our resources and manufacturing capacity. While those remain under the control of capital, they aren't going to be used sustainably. It's pretty much illegal for the managers of public companies to put any criterion above profitability. Countless examples can be produced to demonstrate that profitability and sustainability typically conflict.
 
Pete Dickenson, the author of the Socialist Party pamphlet "Planning Green Growth" which was discussed earlier in the thread, is speaking in a discussion on "A socialist energy policy" at Socialism 2005. The discussion will focus around the following issues: can a decent standard of living for all be achieved without destroying the planet? What are the alternatives to oil? Does nuclear power offer an alternative?

At the same event Judy Beishon, a member of the Socialist Party executive, and Derek Wall, a member of the Green Party executive, will be debating the issue of whether you have to be Red to be Green. In both sessions contributions from the floor will be welcome.

Socialism 2005 takes place in London on the weekend of 12-13 November.
http://www.socialism2005.net

(Sorry to bounce an old thread but these meetings deal with a lot of what has been discussed here and I thought that the people who posted on this thread would probably be interested).

More info on this thread:
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=138400
 
At the beginning of this thread, or possibly one the many others that Bernie has started on this issue, he posed a question regarding the integration of the Green and ‘Marxist’ critiques. While a few have responded from a ‘marxist’ perspective, the debate does not seem to have moved forward all that much.

At a highly abstract level, I was sure that an answer could be worked out from an understanding of the ‘commodity form’ and development and critique of the ‘commodity’ in a capitalist economy. Alas my theoretical efforts have proved pitiful in this instance.

However, I have come across someone I first met as a result of the docks dispute here. Her name is Silvia Federici and she is a victim of the ‘Years of Lead’ in Italy of the 1970s, forced into exile as a result of the clampdown following the assassination of Aldo Moro.

But it can sometimes be beneficial, if not for the person directly involved, for part of Silvia’s exile was to Nigeria where she studied communal land holding and was able to concretise some of the feminist notions that the Italians influenced by ‘autonomia’ were developing. And in a similar fashion to what they had done at home, she was forced to turn existing ‘marxist’ notions on their head, to make any sense of the social reality around her.

In this case it is our understanding of what is represented by ‘subsistence agriculture’ that she began to challenge. Classically subsistence or peasant agriculture is viewed as a hangover from a pre-capitalist period, something destined to disappear as capitalist relationships take over in the countryside. Whilst this may have happened in Western Europe and North America, although she presents evidence to show that this is not the whole story, this is overwhelmingly not the case for the so-called ‘third world’.

So we have a ‘marxist’, albeit an unorthodox one, who IMVHO, is beginning the work of integrating a ‘green perspective’ into a ‘marx based’ political outlook. It may be of course that what she analyses will cause most ‘marxists’ to choke.

Her initial perspectives were out lined in a short very readable article published in the commoner, called ‘Women, Land Struggle and the Valorisation of Labor’. Self valorisation being a term developed by Toni Negri, but don’t let that put any one off.

www.commoner.org.uk/ and follow the link with her name in it.

Since that was written she has considerably fleshed out the analysis in a publication called ‘Caliban and the Witch: Women, the Body and Primitive Accumulation.’ I have not read this yet, but going from the article in the commoner, it may offer many hints about future strategies for combating globalisation, all rooted in the material reality of the present

Anyway don't let this derail the thread from 'sustainability' - because her argument is that subsistence agriculture is very sustainable - it's just the capitalists and especially their NGO helpers who want to wipe it out.

Gra
 
I just read the article in the commoner, it's very interesting. I'd been coming at this stuff from the science, but I hadn't really connected it to concrete struggles in the developing world (and hence potentially here) as well as I might have done. This is very helpful, thanks :)
 
Isn't there a prior step where the green and marxist critiques connect though?

I've been reading through all that stuff on primitive accumulation in the Commoner and various stuff I've found elsewhere. It seems to me that a green critique and a marxist one connect at that level before anywhere else.

I get the idea that that's also where the green critique and the traditional left stuff diverges, insofar as the latter is seeing such accumulation as an inevitable historical step in the march of "progress" towards socialism.

Once you start to see primitive accumulation as an ongoing and constituting process of modern global capitalism, green and at least particular kinds of marxist critiques come back into alignment. If you look at what building sustainability entails, and if you look at how it's presently being destroyed rather than built, primitive accumulation is the obstacle you keep hitting.
 
Are you sure that's it? I think Nigel has posted that before.

What I would say about the paper is that I find it unconvincing. Even if you can stabilise soil erosion and dangerous climate change, growth itself does not seem to me to be a valid objective. Sustainability with any presently imaginable technical basis, requires living within the energy budget provided by renewable solar flows and the amount of viable land and water etc available for growing food.

I think there are some reasonable points being made in the article, for example the damaging positive feedbacks around which capitalism is built and the negative feedback affecting population growth where material security is improved. I get a strong impression though, that the author hasn't done the maths when he seems to say that consumption levels can increase, along with population on a global scale, to be levelled off at some undefined time in the future.

We presently have about 0.27ha of crop land per human, you need about 3ha per capita, about 20% of it arable and all of it capable of growing at least grass, trees etc, to maintain a European average standard of living sustainably, with believable assumptions. (See Pimentel: "Food, Energy and Society") That figure of 3ha per cap for sustainability with our present standard of living, suggests that we would need to improve material conditions in the developing world to the point where a population growth rate of 1.5 children per couple could be sustained for the next 100 years, without further soil erosion and etc. This would allow stabilisation at around 2billion, which is what a global 'share' of 3ha per human would indicate, assuming nothing got worse.

We get away with the present situation for two reasons, 1) vast oil inputs are used to e.g. make marginal land productive, 2) about half of the worlds population is starving or close to it. You can just about support one human in bare subsistence conditions with 0.27ha and no oil, if you're very clever about how you do it. That means labour-intensive organic farming, nutrient recycling using appropriate technology and lots of other specific techniques.

We do however have about half the oil still available and while burning it causes climate change, we can stop burning it quite so fast and make more intelligent provisions for the future. I agree with the author that it makes a great deal of sense to remove the positive feedbacks affecting population growth by prioritising the material security of people in the developing world, rather than making it worse as happens under global capitalism.

I think the best way to do that, is to let people return to doing subsistence farming and other local trades that are able to supply their material needs and as far as possible, to do the same ourselves. In effect to roll-back the consequences of primitive accumulation, rather than look upon them as representing a precondition, however bloody, for something that we call "progress."

I am not advocating primitivism, or a rejection of technology, but I am advocating returning basic subsistence resources to the direct control of the communities that they support, as far as this is possible, and federating to provide resources that small communities cannot support, such as hospitals, universities and genuinely necessary high-techology.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
Are you sure that's it? I think Nigel has posted that before.

What I would say about the paper is that I find it unconvincing. Even if you can stabilise soil erosion and dangerous climate change, growth itself does not seem to me to be a valid objective. Sustainability with any presently imaginable technical basis, requires living within the energy budget provided by renewable solar flows and the amount of viable land and water etc available for growing food.

I think there are some reasonable points being made in the article, for example the damaging positive feedbacks around which capitalism is built and the negative feedback affecting population growth where material security is improved. I get a strong impression though, that the author hasn't done the maths when he seems to say that consumption levels can increase, along with population on a global scale, to be levelled off at some undefined time in the future.

We presently have about 0.27ha of crop land per human, you need about 3ha per capita, about 20% of it arable and all of it capable of growing at least grass, trees etc, to maintain a European average standard of living sustainably, with believable assumptions. (See Pimentel: "Food, Energy and Society") That figure of 3ha per cap for sustainability with our present standard of living, suggests that we would need to improve material conditions in the developing world to the point where a population growth rate of 1.5 children per couple could be sustained for the next 100 years, without further soil erosion and etc. This would allow stabilisation at around 2billion, which is what a global 'share' of 3ha per human would indicate, assuming nothing got worse.

We get away with the present situation for two reasons, 1) vast oil inputs are used to e.g. make marginal land productive, 2) about half of the worlds population is starving or close to it. You can just about support one human in bare subsistence conditions with 0.27ha and no oil, if you're very clever about how you do it. That means labour-intensive organic farming, nutrient recycling using appropriate technology and lots of other specific techniques.

We do however have about half the oil still available and while burning it causes climate change, we can stop burning it quite so fast and make more intelligent provisions for the future. I agree with the author that it makes a great deal of sense to remove the positive feedbacks affecting population growth by prioritising the material security of people in the developing world, rather than making it worse as happens under global capitalism.

I think the best way to do that, is to let people return to doing subsistence farming and other local trades that are able to supply their material needs and as far as possible, to do the same ourselves. In effect to roll-back the consequences of primitive accumulation, rather than look upon them as representing a precondition, however bloody, for something that we call "progress."

I am not advocating primitivism, or a rejection of technology, but I am advocating returning basic subsistence resources to the direct control of the communities that they support, as far as this is possible, and federating to provide resources that small communities cannot support, such as hospitals, universities and genuinely necessary high-techology.

I never saw this thread before posting my own, for that I'm sorry. Should there be mainstream propoganda regarding the current unsustainable levels of the world's population, and docu-scenario involving a world without oil. David Attenborough to present it and a one off show with a panel of biologist, geologist and the like.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
Are you sure that's it? I think Nigel has posted that before.

What I would say about the paper is that I find it unconvincing. Even if you can stabilise soil erosion and dangerous climate change, growth itself does not seem to me to be a valid objective. Sustainability with any presently imaginable technical basis, requires living within the energy budget provided by renewable solar flows and the amount of viable land and water etc available for growing food.

I think there are some reasonable points being made in the article, for example the damaging positive feedbacks around which capitalism is built and the negative feedback affecting population growth where material security is improved. I get a strong impression though, that the author hasn't done the maths when he seems to say that consumption levels can increase, along with population on a global scale, to be levelled off at some undefined time in the future.

We presently have about 0.27ha of crop land per human, you need about 3ha per capita, about 20% of it arable and all of it capable of growing at least grass, trees etc, to maintain a European average standard of living sustainably, with believable assumptions. (See Pimentel: "Food, Energy and Society") That figure of 3ha per cap for sustainability with our present standard of living, suggests that we would need to improve material conditions in the developing world to the point where a population growth rate of 1.5 children per couple could be sustained for the next 100 years, without further soil erosion and etc. This would allow stabilisation at around 2billion, which is what a global 'share' of 3ha per human would indicate, assuming nothing got worse.

We get away with the present situation for two reasons, 1) vast oil inputs are used to e.g. make marginal land productive, 2) about half of the worlds population is starving or close to it. You can just about support one human in bare subsistence conditions with 0.27ha and no oil, if you're very clever about how you do it. That means labour-intensive organic farming, nutrient recycling using appropriate technology and lots of other specific techniques.

We do however have about half the oil still available and while burning it causes climate change, we can stop burning it quite so fast and make more intelligent provisions for the future. I agree with the author that it makes a great deal of sense to remove the positive feedbacks affecting population growth by prioritising the material security of people in the developing world, rather than making it worse as happens under global capitalism.

I think the best way to do that, is to let people return to doing subsistence farming and other local trades that are able to supply their material needs and as far as possible, to do the same ourselves. In effect to roll-back the consequences of primitive accumulation, rather than look upon them as representing a precondition, however bloody, for something that we call "progress."

I am not advocating primitivism, or a rejection of technology, but I am advocating returning basic subsistence resources to the direct control of the communities that they support, as far as this is possible, and federating to provide resources that small communities cannot support, such as hospitals, universities and genuinely necessary high-techology.

I never saw this thread before posting my own, for that I'm sorry. Should there be mainstream propoganda regarding the current unsustainable levels of the world's population, a docu-scenario involving a world without oil. David Attenborough to present it and a one off show with a panel of biologist, geologist and the like. People seem to be in a daze about this issue as if it is too far off into the future to worry about. Britain's population was in decline not so long ago. Japan's is also in decline, though they have 130m populace, it is estimate that in the next 100 year their population will be 50m if the current trend continues. Though one university lecture said that would be an optimum figure. Shouldn't we be encourage one-child families with a view to the wider issue.
 
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