By the way Leslie...I think you might have long since burnt your bridges here....might as well stick to your original agenda !
Students occupy University of Sheffield Auditorium
- Thread starter editor
- Start date
By the way Leslie...I think you might have long since burnt your bridges here....might as well stick to your original agenda !
1) It isn't 'crippling debt' because you only pay on income over 21,000. So someone on a low wage job would pay nowt, and someone on 25k wouldn't pay much either. It's only when you start getting into the realm of 'good' jobs you have to make hefty repayments.
2) I would be in favour of targeted help for kids from working class backgrounds- maybe a one-off bursary upon gaining good A level grades to cover those initial expenses at uni- the first months rent, the first train ticket away from home (or petrol for the family car if mum/dad is taking you), your first text books,maybe even a cheap laptop because most students need those. The sort of things kids from middle class backgrounds take for granted that mum and dad will pay for.
I've no idea if anything like 2) exists, but if it doesn't it certainly should. That's not the same as saying all uni education, or even all uni education for working class kids, should be free.-If and when someone from the working class succeeds through uni, and earns more than the threshold, they should repay towards the cost of their education like anyone else.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
*wink* from one comrade to another.
Buckaroo
Donkey piss and tractors
A train ticket and a few books won't do it mate. They'll be paying for the rest of their lives.
ItWillNeverWork
Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
There used to be a means-tested maintenance grant until this year when the c**t Osborne decided to replace it with a loan. So basically, the poorer you are when you start your degree, the more debt you will be in when you finish. Great, innit?
Good luck to anyone with the hope of saving for a deposit on a house after they graduate. Not going to happen for an entire generation of people who will have their disposable income taken from them as soon as they reach 21k in earnings.
No she's burn't them with me too. She's in no mans land.
It was beautiful while it lasted.
(sob)
Where's my mate Pickman gone to ?
Commuting I expect.
Commuting I expect.
ItWillNeverWork
Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
The ice is thin round this corner of the pond, Barry43210.
How about 95% tax for income received in excess of £100k? Or in excess of £200k? Or £1m?
Is there no level at which your calculus of deserving gives way to recognising that it was society tha creating the conditions that allowed the individual to get that rich? Is the "deserving" just unlimited in scale?
No, 95% would be punitive/unfair. As I say less people would bother. Not just doctors, many would do that for other more wholesome reasons. But what about Solicitors sat doing conveyancing work all day. I'd rather stab mysel in the eye than do that. Who is going to do crappy jobs like that if you tax any financial benefit out if it.
With regard to somebody's earlier basic comment about greed...wanting to earn a bit more and provide for your family, or maybe retire a bit earlier is not greed.
By the way...'calculus' ?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
yeh. so you want working class people who go to uni to jave low paid jobs. how good and kind you are.
Too cryptic for me
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
you're barry no-mates who doesn't know about government borrowing
ItWillNeverWork
Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
esp if leslieb has his way
It's those inital expenses a lot of w/c families struggle with, though. The train ticket could be the thick end of a ton, more if a parent comes along to help. A first months rent could be £300 or more, plus at least £200 for a deposit. All needing paying up front *before* the term starts. A one-off grant of say £800 paid on hitting the target grades and before starting uni would make a real difference
As for paying the rest back....they will be paying *if* they reach the threshold. Note the word if.
Good luck to anyone with the hope of saving for a deposit on a house after they graduate. Not going to happen for an entire generation of people who will have their disposable income taken from them as soon as they reach 21k in earnings.
But that is another issue entirely. That's down to the housing crisis. It used to be perfectly possible for someone on modest wages (much less than the equivilent of 21k in todays money) to buy a modest terrace house.
At the turn of the century terraced houses in nice condition in perfectly reasonable areas of Derby went for 25k. Thats 39k in todays money. If the prices were that, almost anyone with a steady job even on NMW could get a 90% mortgage on one, assuming 3.5 times earnings.
Are you saying only graduates should be buying their own houses (I know you aren't, but you get my point)
Now you see I'm back with Barry on this. I think 95% would be silly. Even 75% would be pushing it. I think you would see some pretty serious laffer curve effects once you get that high, percentage wise.
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
Your example is disingenuous, at the very least far from the whole picture.
In 2000, the council house I was brought up in (in the 60's and 70's) was on the market for £170,000. It was in Bedfordshire. 3 bedroomed, nothing special. It was a fucking council house for christ's sake.
So this bit
is not correct. The prices weren't that.
Not where I'm from.
ItWillNeverWork
Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
Forget the 95% thing. All that's needed to have higher education free at the point of use is an extra couple of percent on current tax rates to bring in an extra 10 billion or so.
Buckaroo
Donkey piss and tractors
Months rent £300, What planet?! What w/c families struggle with is a health care system provided for them which they've already fucking worked for and paid for.
I was going to mention the laffer curve but thought the audience might think I was laughing at the matter at hand.
(( won't somebody think of the solicitors! ))
Hey, we're in this make believe world for a moment where everybody earns virtually the same after tax.
In that circumstance would YOU do this sort of dull crappy work....or just wait for somebody else to do it ?
(no need to answer, I know you are busy awarding yourself trophies for being morally superior)
Ah I get it ! At long last.
Absolute genius. So I mention that one of governments functions is to collect a finite amount of tax and spend it on priorities, that they don't create wealth as such. And the genius proclaims I am wrong because they also borrow.
Forgive me, but doesn't this just add to their outgoings (out of the tax take) in the form of debt repayments (plus interest)
In other words. What in earth is your point !!
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
You were talking about money, not wealth.
Greasy Boiler
Active Member
The reforms to HE spending that happened under the coalition were primarily about reducing departmental spending in the short term. No one should be under the illusion that this will translate into meaningful long term public sector savings (it may even cost more). Indeed, much of the fanfare at the time stressed that despite the substantial increase in the overall cost of tuition, the repayment schedule was at least more "progressive" than the old system what with its higher repayment threshold and graduated levels of interest.
However, as many pointed out this was all predicated on there being no further changes to system in the foreseeable future, something of which there was absolutely no guarantee. What do we find 4 years later? Maintenance grants for poorer students are scrapped. The repayment threshold is to be frozen for the foreseeable future and is going to be backdated to all applicants since 2012. This is just the tip of the iceberg - the incentive is just too strong. Unfortunately, the university sector has so far done pretty well out of the changes so don't expect much protest from that quarter.
Either you look at it the reforms of 2011-2012 continued the move away from a welfare economy where costs are pooled to one of individualized debt (albeit state subsidized - for now). I personally do see this as emblematic of the continuing failure of Western nations to translate the benefits of growth to their wider citizenry. How this will all pan out? Fuck knows but I'm not optimistic.
However, as many pointed out this was all predicated on there being no further changes to system in the foreseeable future, something of which there was absolutely no guarantee. What do we find 4 years later? Maintenance grants for poorer students are scrapped. The repayment threshold is to be frozen for the foreseeable future and is going to be backdated to all applicants since 2012. This is just the tip of the iceberg - the incentive is just too strong. Unfortunately, the university sector has so far done pretty well out of the changes so don't expect much protest from that quarter.
Either you look at it the reforms of 2011-2012 continued the move away from a welfare economy where costs are pooled to one of individualized debt (albeit state subsidized - for now). I personally do see this as emblematic of the continuing failure of Western nations to translate the benefits of growth to their wider citizenry. How this will all pan out? Fuck knows but I'm not optimistic.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Quite.
Crucially in the national accounts the loans are classified as ‘financial transactions’, not ‘expenditure’, and are excluded from calculations of the deficit.
Again, nit picking where you are unable to form an argument of any kind.
If you replace the word 'wealth' in what I said with 'money', what difference does that make to the subject matter at hand ?
No difference. No difference whatsoever.
Please add value ?
And what was that about Leslie's original agenda?
...and please keep up.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
You appear to be under the impression that the two words are inter-changeable and mean the same thing.
Similar threads
