Ban you cos you are a conspiraloon that has nothing to say except repeating other conspiraloons.
Universal basic income
- Thread starter gosub
- Start date
Ban you cos you are a conspiraloon that has nothing to say except repeating other conspiraloons.
I'm putting you on ignore, I'm not having 8 fucking pages of this pantomine where you just attack me rather than debate anything. Fucking pratt.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Not necessarily if it was done through the income tax system.
The other factor to bear in mind is that employers would have a pool of potential employees who don't need them in the same way as they did. Job interviews could be reversed. So, why do you think your company is a good fit for me to work for? Why should I bother getting out of bed for you?
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
You could just ignore his posts. I don't bother reading them any more.
I don’t agree with indulging conspiraloons as part of a community.
£1,600 for nowt sounds a pretty good deal. Until you have to rent a London property and live off the rest. Good for Landlords though.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Not really as that was during a pandemic when people's spending and daily lives were very different.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Realistically to work, it would need to come in as part of a wide-ranging overhaul of how society is organised. Completely doable with the political will. But there will of course be plenty of voices against it.
I don't see the UK being the first country to introduce something like this tbh, but if AI really does transform the world of work over the next few years, something like this may become more viable. It feels utopian to imagine a future in which people are able to choose to work part-time and pursue other interests. There will be something to stop that from happening.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Yes, there’s a version of the future where UI could be a good thing. I’m far from convinced that’s the one policy makers will have in mind if it’s ever enacted.
Our overlords are happy with folk living on the streets with nothing if they’re not productive units so I can’t see how we get from here to there.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
It's difficult to imagine right now, yes.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
We did make a step towards replicators with 3 printed cheesecake earlier this year, though. 
NoXion
Craicy the Squirrel
In which case that wouldn't be UBI, just scrip or Yank-style food stamps or what have you. It's my understanding that the whole point of UBI is that it's universal and that there are no strings attached to the money so proffered. Any scheme that tries cloaking itself in the language of universality while in fact enforcing restrictions needs calling out as such.
Rob Ray
Weight is meaningless
The basic process of UBI from a conservative viewpoint:
1. Get rid of all other forms of benefit as we're running it all into UBI.
2. Start a media panic about UBI on grounds we can't afford it for everyone.
3. Strip UBI away from "those who can afford it"
4. Squeeze the amount, now with support from the middle/upper class right who don't get it anyway
5. Start threatening to take it away from antisocial people
Eventual outcome: reduced benefit system with vastly less admin.
I'm not saying it's a bust, but the left often talks about this stuff as though the enemy won't try and warp it to their own ends. Even Milton Friedman was interested in UBI, and he was as we know a stone cold scumbag - people like him never have the working classes' interests at heart.
1. Get rid of all other forms of benefit as we're running it all into UBI.
2. Start a media panic about UBI on grounds we can't afford it for everyone.
3. Strip UBI away from "those who can afford it"
4. Squeeze the amount, now with support from the middle/upper class right who don't get it anyway
5. Start threatening to take it away from antisocial people
Eventual outcome: reduced benefit system with vastly less admin.
I'm not saying it's a bust, but the left often talks about this stuff as though the enemy won't try and warp it to their own ends. Even Milton Friedman was interested in UBI, and he was as we know a stone cold scumbag - people like him never have the working classes' interests at heart.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I agree, although this kind of restriction can also be used in a positive way as a form of rationing of essentials, if they are truly universal, that is - ie everyone has to use food money to buy food.
These kinds of measures can be used for very different ends, depending on how they are implemented. They can be used as a stick with which to beat the poor or as a means by which to restrict the excesses of the rich.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Yep. We've already seen this process with child benefit. That step number 3. is the crucial one.
weepiper
I fix the machines that fight climate change
This already happened with tax credits first and now universal credit. There's a reason supermarkets and other retail jobs are disproportionately staffed by women with children. It's because our income is topped up by universal credit. Noone with kids could afford to live working those jobs otherwise.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
The Cristicuffs/GKN piece, originally posted on the thread ska linked it, is still on the mark.
NoXion
Craicy the Squirrel
I'd say that the common denominator is right-wing governments looking to strip away eligibility and create scapegoats, rather than any particular form of social benefit. There's nothing inherently wrong with the idea of a social benefit for people with children. All the fearing about UBI being some kind of vessel for conservative malfeasance could just as well be applied to more conventional benefits that have also been attacked and pared back over the decades. Introducing UBI doesn't have to mean abolishing anything else.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Yup. That sums it up. This is all on the other thread.
Yeah but if they could control what all money could be spent on then it would be universal income because it would be no different than any other money. /s
The Tories aren’t well known for being interventionist in the economy unless it affects business. They don’t care about people who aren’t of their class. They don’t regulate what you spend your money on though. That’s the free thing in their free market philosophy.
I would define that more as bad populism ... let's all make a lot of people (maybe even the majority) feel better on a narrow issue without stepping back and looking at the bigger picture or aligning the cogs to make the system work.
It's not a popular opinion I have, but this is why UBI is such a dangerous thing because all it takes is one amendment when if they ever vote it through and we have disaster, some digital system that forces people to spend the money on some things but not others. That's a dangerous prescidence to set at a time when people feel absolutely powerless with what little they say being ignored by all parties.
We're living in different times. The technology to intervene at low cost is there.
The markets aren't free, they're more and more regulated. Surely you've heard of ESG by now? It's a cancer in our financial system.
What’s ESG? I’m correct about the Conservatives and those who think they are too interventionist are probably tea party loons.
Not sure I can be arsed reading it tbh.
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