Spanish Political News

[Brainaddict]

I always like a reminder of how incompetent state actors can be. It would have been fairly easy to sideline this referendum politically and sweep the results under the carpet. Instead - I suspect for the sake of appealing to their right wing base - they've created increased resentment against the Spanish state that will last a generation.

I was in Barcelona for the annual nationalist march the other year and came away with very mixed feelings about it all. The pro-indy left march alongside the pro-indy right, who use narratives like not having to support the rest of Spain. I'm also pretty dubious about one of the left wing narratives: that Spain is a colonialist state and Catalonia is not. I can't say I was comfortable with it all, and perhaps felt I didn't understand it.

But by using violence to suppress the independence movement the Spanish state makes actual arguments less relevant, and I'm not surprised if more people are shifting to a pro-indy position.

 

[Wilf]

it is fairly clear

View attachment 116893
if here they are talking about ballots that means completed voting papers from the context

I think the issue of when they were confiscated still has an impact. If they were confiscated before voting, the overall turnout figure suggests only 42% of them might have voted anyway* - bringing the overall turnout to something hovering around 50%. If they were confiscated between voting and the count, there would have been 700,000 extra votes on the turnout - definitely over 50%. I suspect it's the former, but should probably have a look on tinternet myself.

Edit * - that is obviously a big assumption, but the point is they wouldn't all have ended up as actual votes.

 

[chilango]

I think it should be clear that you can't make any sort of clear pronouncements about a mandate when a vote is held in this kind of circumstance. I guess that was part of the purpose of what the Spanish state did.

So if the ballot box is ruled out....?

 

[Pickman's model]

I think it should be clear that you can't make any sort of clear pronouncements about a mandate when a vote is held in this kind of circumstance. I guess that was part of the purpose of what the Spanish state did.

So if the ballot box is ruled out....?

you get a very clear pronouncement in this sort of circumstance, and the spanish state made that very clear yesterday

 

[gosub]

I reckon less than 50% turnout does. That and, you know the calls not to vote.

What a silly post.

Over 50% in those circumstances and it was hello independent Catalonia. What we have, is the messy situation with both sides having things to cling to that will spiral downwards and out of control. 800 injured is violent suppression not boycott

 

[butchersapron]

Over 50% in those circumstances and it was hello independent Catalonia. What we have, is the messy situation with both sides having things to cling to that will spiral downwards and out of control. 800 injured is violent suppression not boycott

Another bizarre post that has little - if anything at all - to do with what i've posted.

 

[Wilf]

if it were like the scottish referendum sure - that argument could be made. On this one - no.

In what sense, do you mean because there was a boycott this time? If so, yes, it's reasonable to assume that No had a big majority of the non-voters, but it's also the case that that plenty of Yes voters would have been put off or were actually stopped by the GC. It certainly looks like Yes are close to being able to make the claim they got a massive majority of actual votes and, depending on the 700k claim, could have had a majority of the electorate. It's nowhere near the threshold for a national breakaway, given the events of yesterday, but the Spanish state have handed them the argument that it was only their (the State's) interventions that stopped 50%+ of the electorate voting yes. The irony is, in a normal campaign with both sides actively campaigning, yes probably wouldn't have won.

 

[butchersapron]

In what sense, do you mean there was a boycott this time? If so, yes, it's reasonable to assume that No had a big majority of the non-voters, but it's also the case that that plenty of Yes voters would have been put off or were actually stopped by the GC. It certainly looks like Yes are close to being able to make the claim they got a massive majority of actual votes and, depending on the 700k claim, could have had a majority of the electorate. It's nowhere near the threshold for a national breakaway, given the events of yesterday, but the Spanish state have handed them the argument that it was only their (the State's) interventions that stopped 50%+ of the electorate voting yes. The irony is, in a normal campaign with both sides actively campaigning, yes probably wouldn't have won.

I mean the opposition parties - all of them - opposing the referendum and asking their supporters to do so too. Leaving a newly cobbled together party with a handful of MPs to manouvere in the background to gain the presidency and push the vote. That is, the vast majority of parties opposing it. That's the boycott.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I always like a reminder of how incompetent state actors can be. It would have been fairly easy to sideline this referendum politically and sweep the results under the carpet. Instead - I suspect for the sake of appealing to their right wing base - they've created increased resentment against the Spanish state that will last a generation.

I was in Barcelona for the annual nationalist march the other year and came away with very mixed feelings about it all. The pro-indy left march alongside the pro-indy right, who use narratives like not having to support the rest of Spain. I'm also pretty dubious about one of the left wing narratives: that Spain is a colonialist state and Catalonia is not. I can't say I was comfortable with it all, and perhaps felt I didn't understand it.

But by using violence to suppress the independence movement the Spanish state makes actual arguments less relevant, and I'm not surprised if more people are shifting to a pro-indy position.

tbh I think you've understood it well enough. It is contradictory, pulling together old Franco-era grievances with pretty dodgy r/w nationalism and an idea that Catalans have more in common with northern Europe than southern Spain. An independent Catalonia would be very likely to have some dodgy ideas about the non-Catalan-speaking Castellano population and how to treat them, as we've seen with the Russian minorities in Latvia.

 

[Brainaddict]

tbh I think you've understood it well enough. It is contradictory, pulling together old Franco-era grievances with pretty dodgy r/w nationalism and an idea that Catalans have more in common with northern Europe than southern Spain. An independent Catalonia would be very likely to have some dodgy ideas about the non-Catalan-speaking Castellano population and how to treat them, as we've seen with the Russian minorities in Latvia.

One thing I found dodgy from the left was how most of the squatted social centres in Barcelona would publish material only in Catalan. This might make sense in a rural location but they are perfectly aware that there are loads of people in Barcelona who speak Spanish but not Catalan, so it's quite exclusive. They would argue, I suspect, that they are asserting their culture in a defensive way, but your defence shouldn't be implicitly directed at others who are as screwed as you in many ways (the many working class Spanish-speakers in the city). I believe the official figure is only 50-60% of Barcelona speaks Catalan, so what are they doing publishing social centre programs only in Catalan?

 

[Wilf]

I mean the opposition parties - all of them - opposing the referendum and asking their supporters to do so too. Leaving a newly cobbled together party with a handful of MPs to manouvere in the background to gain the presidency and push the vote. That is, the vast majority of parties opposing it. That's the boycott.

I do agree with you with regard to everything that shaped this vote right up to the day itself - it was almost a perfect scenario for Yes winning and, essentially, a flawed referendum. It's just that Yes now have a line of argument that events on the day stopped them getting a 50% turnout and maybe even a majority of the total electorate ('the 700,000' + Yes voters who were stopped/put off from voting). All of that is Madrid fucking things up - in several ways - and handing a 'victory' to Yes.

 

[butchersapron]

I do agree with you with regard to everything that shaped this vote right up to the day itself - it was almost a perfect scenario for Yes winning and, essentially, a flawed referendum. It's just that Yes now have a line of argument that events on the day stopped them getting a 50% turnout and maybe even a majority of the total electorate ('the 700,000' + Yes voters who were stopped/put off from voting). All of that is Madrid fucking things up - in several ways - and handing a 'victory' to Yes.

Of course - but just forgetting the internal opposition is madness. And i think it has been forgotten by many in the understandable anger at the actions of the cops and the spanish state and the nationalist grandstanding (a piece of the same theatre).

 

[chilango]

One thing I found dodgy from the left was how most of the squatted social centres in Barcelona would publish material only in Catalan. This might make sense in a rural location but they are perfectly aware that there are loads of people in Barcelona who speak Spanish but not Catalan, so it's quite exclusive. They would argue, I suspect, that they are asserting their culture in a defensive way, but your defence shouldn't be implicitly directed at others who are as screwed as you in many ways (the many working class Spanish-speakers in the city). I believe the official figure is only 50-60% of Barcelona speaks Catalan, so what are they doing publishing social centre programs only in Catalan?

How mutually intelligible are Catalan and Spanish?

My Spanish is ropey, but I can "understand" Catalan slogans, posters etc. to a point. An actual Spanish speaker would be far better equipped maybe?

or are the two languages far enough apart to make Catalan impenetrable at the level of the texts being produced?

 

[Chz]

How mutually intelligible are Catalan and Spanish?

My Spanish is ropey, but I can "understand" Catalan slogans, posters etc. to a point. An actual Spanish speaker would be far better equipped maybe?

or are the two languages far enough apart to make Catalan impenetrable at the level of the texts being produced?

There's some written intelligibility between them, though I'd say that's true of most Romance languages. As spoken, they're not mutually intelligible unless both parties are trying very hard to be understood.

 

[butchersapron]

There's some written intelligibility between them, though I'd say that's true of most Romance languages. As spoken, they're not mutually intelligible unless both parties are trying very hard to be understood.

...or trying not to be - as when 'culture' - and thus language - becomes political resistance. Becomes identity. Or is sold as.

Reason they always have old IRA posters up and stuff. Oddly enough, few Northern Alliance ones.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

There's some written intelligibility between them, though I'd say that's true of most Romance languages. As spoken, they're not mutually intelligible unless both parties are trying very hard to be understood.

Yep. I speak Spanish but not Catalan or Portuguese. I find written Portuguese easier to understand than written Catalan. Spoken, no clue with either.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

...or trying not to be - as when 'culture' - and thus language - becomes political resistance. Becomes identity. Or is sold as.

Reason they always have old IRA posters up and stuff. Oddly enough, few Northern Alliance ones.

And here's the problem. Under Franco, using Catalan was political resistance. The practice has understandable roots, but is now being put to divisive purposes.

 

[butchersapron]

The EU speaks!

(under the rapid release program, 27 hours too late)

Statement on the events in Catalonia

Brussels, 2 October 2017

Under the Spanish Constitution, yesterday's vote in Catalonia was not legal.
For the European Commission, as President Juncker has reiterated repeatedly, this is an internal matter for Spain that has to be dealt with in line with the constitutional order of Spain.

We also reiterate the legal position held by this Commission as well as by its predecessors. If a referendum were to be organised in line with the Spanish Constitution it would mean that the territory leaving would find itself outside of the European Union.

Beyond the purely legal aspects of this matter, the Commission believes that these are times for unity and stability, not divisiveness and fragmentation.

We call on all relevant players to now move very swiftly from confrontation to dialogue. Violence can never be an instrument in politics. We trust the leadership of Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy to manage this difficult process in full respect of the Spanish Constitution and of the fundamental rights of citizens enshrined therein.

 

[kebabking]

The EU speaks!

(under the rapid release program, 27 hours too late)

Statement on the events in Catalonia

Brussels, 2 October 2017

Under the Spanish Constitution, yesterday's vote in Catalonia was not legal.
For the European Commission, as President Juncker has reiterated repeatedly, this is an internal matter for Spain that has to be dealt with in line with the constitutional order of Spain.

We also reiterate the legal position held by this Commission as well as by its predecessors. If a referendum were to be organised in line with the Spanish Constitution it would mean that the territory leaving would find itself outside of the European Union.

Beyond the purely legal aspects of this matter, the Commission believes that these are times for unity and stability, not divisiveness and fragmentation.
We call on all relevant players to now move very swiftly from confrontation to dialogue. Violence can never be an instrument in politics. We trust the leadership of Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy to manage this difficult process in full respect of the Spanish Constitution and of the fundamental rights of citizens enshrined therein.

shit, i'm beginging to be relieved that remain lost...

 

[Brainaddict]

How mutually intelligible are Catalan and Spanish?

My Spanish is ropey, but I can "understand" Catalan slogans, posters etc. to a point. An actual Spanish speaker would be far better equipped maybe?

or are the two languages far enough apart to make Catalan impenetrable at the level of the texts being produced?

There's some intelligibility but it's not total. I reckon Spanish people could mostly guess right with short announcements, but it's still unwelcoming. Look at this social centre site chosen pretty much at random - you can get the drift of the 'objectives' page if you skim over it, but I can't imagine many Spanish-speakers would slog through all that half-understood text A fons

I think it would be courteous to have at least an auto-translate button on the website if you don't want to write it all in Spanish too, but this site, like many of them, doesn't even bother with that. Presumably they've had debates about this type of thing and have their own logic for it, but to an outsider it looks pretty odd.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

There's some intelligibility but it's not total. I reckon Spanish people could mostly guess right with short announcements, but it's still unwelcoming. Look at this social centre site chosen pretty much at random - you can get the drift of the 'objectives' page if you skim over it, but I can't imagine many Spanish-speakers would slog through all that half-understood text A fons

I think it would be courteous to have at least an auto-translate button on the website if you don't want to write it all in Spanish too, but this site, like many of them, doesn't even bother with that. Presumably they've had debates about this type of thing and have their own logic for it, but to an outsider it looks pretty odd.

It is unwelcoming. It's supposed to be. I see parallels with the aggressive assertion of language as an integral part of national identity in the Baltic states. Decades of repression have been followed by an unpleasant exclusionary reaction - you don't speak the language, well you don't really belong here.

 

[Rimbaud]

shit, i'm beginging to be relieved that remain lost...

I am a remainer not because I like the EU as such but because I think it is beneficial to a more internationalist outlook, above and beyond national identities. I still think this is true, and that the EU can be changed. (I have joined DiEM25 for that reason)

But my God, it is depressing that the EU will do nothing whatsoever to uphold the values it professes to uphold. It should not be this way.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

The EU speaks!

(under the rapid release program, 27 hours too late)

Statement on the events in Catalonia

Brussels, 2 October 2017

Under the Spanish Constitution, yesterday's vote in Catalonia was not legal.
For the European Commission, as President Juncker has reiterated repeatedly, this is an internal matter for Spain that has to be dealt with in line with the constitutional order of Spain.

We also reiterate the legal position held by this Commission as well as by its predecessors. If a referendum were to be organised in line with the Spanish Constitution it would mean that the territory leaving would find itself outside of the European Union.

Beyond the purely legal aspects of this matter, the Commission believes that these are times for unity and stability, not divisiveness and fragmentation.

We call on all relevant players to now move very swiftly from confrontation to dialogue. Violence can never be an instrument in politics. We trust the leadership of Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy to manage this difficult process in full respect of the Spanish Constitution and of the fundamental rights of citizens enshrined therein.

Violence can never be an instrument in politics.

Ehrm, yes it can and very often is.

 

[kebabking]

..But my God, it is depressing that the EU will do nothing whatsoever to uphold the values it professes to uphold. It should not be this way.

It's worse - the events of the the last week is how successionist/civil wars start. The EU's unqualified backing of the Spanish govt not only makes that more likely - why should they compromise when they have total EU support? - but it makes it a distinct possibility that other EU states will be dragged into it...

It also exposes a truth that many of us remainers don't like much - that some members of the EU are more equal that others: do any of us believe that the EU's response would have been the same had we seen the same scenes in Edinburgh or Glasgow during indyref?

No, it would have been 'concern' and condemnation...

 

[Pickman's model]

Ehrm, yes it can and very often is.

yeh. didn't clausewitz say something along the lines of war is politics pursued by other means?

 

[Pickman's model]

I am a remainer not because I like the EU as such but because I think it is beneficial to a more internationalist outlook, above and beyond national identities. I still think this is true, and that the EU can be changed. (I have joined DiEM25 for that reason)

But my God, it is depressing that the EU will do nothing whatsoever to uphold the values it professes to uphold. It should not be this way.

you're not used to hypocrisy among politicians, are you?

 

[ddraig]

What the fuck do people think the EU is going to say??
they will stick to the law and fall down on the side of those with the power

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

yeh. didn't clausewitz say something along the lines of war is politics pursued by other means?

Dunno, I don't listen to hip-hop.

 

[Rimbaud]

What the fuck do people think the EU is going to say??
they will stick to the law and fall down on the side of those with the power

It's not surprising, but that doesn't make it any less depressing.

 

[Brainaddict]

What the fuck do people think the EU is going to say??
they will stick to the law and fall down on the side of those with the power

The EU is quite keen on taking a human rights perspective on things beyond its own borders. Though not actually *at* its own borders, obv. Even a wet liberal can use human rights discourse to say that the law isn't always the final word in what happens. They just don't want to do it in this case.

Interestingly I was just talking to a leftie friend in another part of Spain who feels that, while the violent actions of the government are clearly shit, the whole situation was engineered by neo-liberal Catalan elites, so he's angry about both sides of it.