Sheridan perjury trial opens on Monday

[Streathamite]

edited out as PT's answered the question. Yes, I see the point now. PT's slightly got me wrong - I'm more concerned with the practical implications of perjury not being seen as a serious offence, as opposed to me genuflecting before crown and m'lud (which I certainly don't do).

 

[rioted]

so you are saying that socialists should not regard perjury as a law worth respecting (merely one where they should take seriously the worst-case consequences of breaking)?

"vote for us, we'll only lie when politically expedient. Trust us." Can't see it catching on.

who gives a fuck about lying to the crown?

Who gives a fuck about 3 years?

 

[Fedayn]

What?

I specifically said it's obviously going to depend on who else would be implicated. I never claimed socialists should lie to the crown - I said I don't think socialists should hold the crown or the judiciary up as sacred. And I never even mentioned Sheridan or the case, I was commenting on Streathamite holding perjury up as some terrible crime. Personally, my only concern about lying to the courts would be 'will I get caught'.

Fed, I know you're close to all this but you need to chill the fuck out.

Surely the issue is dependent on the matter in hand? Or am I being shafted by someone shop is suppodely my comrade? Well given we're on the thread re Sheridan and the issue of perjury is rather pertinent here it's hardly a leap of logic to use the recent trial as an 'example'.

Sheridan clearly holds perjury up as a crime. He mentioned a witness had been done for perjury, he mentioned that the issue of 'lying' was discussed at an SSP meeting so yeah he clearly does hold it to be important.... Funny that....

Chill the fuck out? There's the tatters of a Left up here and you want me to 'chill the fuck out'?

 

[Cobbles]

What courtcase are you referring to because in the Defamation trial the NotW was the defence as Sheridan was the Plaintiff.

It was a Scottish Civil Court, therefore Tommy was the pursuer and the newspaper was the defender.

 

[Cobbles]

he LIED you twat. Something we all do from time to time. But 3 fucking years - £120,000 of taxpayers money to keep someone who isn't a threat to anyone in prison

He lied under affirmation - that's a criminal offence.

 

[discokermit]

so - devil's advocate - say you, or a socialist you respected - got fucked over as a result of someone lying in court, your response would be?

that's on the same level as saying 'oh, you don't believe in private property, yet you own a car!'. fuck off.

 

[discokermit]

If you read the transcript Tommy Sheridan clearly thinks you shouldn't lie to the crown. But, yet again, he's never to be criticised for his own 'bourgeois morality' as regards adherence to the crown!

i don't give a fuck what sheridan says.

 

[Fedayn]

he LIED you twat. Something we all do from time to time. But 3 fucking years - £120,000 of taxpayers money to keep someone who isn't a threat to anyone in prison

Less than Archer, but i'd agree re jailing perjureres esp non-violent low threat defendants.

 

[Streathamite]

that's on the same level as saying 'oh, you don't believe in private property, yet you own a car!'. fuck off.

no it's not, it's a perfectly reasonable question (NOTE: A question, NOT a statement), so how about giving a reasonable answer?

 

[Fedayn]

i don't give a fuck what sheridan says.

No, you simply ignore what Sheridan did when it conflicts with your attitude on here.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Surely the issue is dependent on the matter in hand?

Why do you keep asking this when I've answered it twice? What I've said has been quite clear. I didn't mention Sheridan, I said 'an oath to who'. And yeah, you should chill the fuck out. If you think the collapse of the Scottish left is just down to Sheridan then you're deluded.

The Welsh equivalent of the SSP collapsed pretty quickly too, without any help from the 'sects' or the 'brit left' or whatever, and without a sex scandal or a perjury trial. It collapsed for the same reasons the SSP did - because class became just another issue, alongside 'feminism, self-determination' blah blah, because it was populist and contradictory, and because too many people were in it for themselves.

As for Sheridan, as I believe I have said before, I do not think he was in the right to pursue the case in the first place and I do not think a socialist should be dropping their comrades in the shit like he did. I also don't think he's the devil, just a vain man who fucked up big time but who, it should also be acknowledged, has done a lot more than most for working class politics. And you are right when you say that everything that came after wouldn't have happened if Sheridan hadn't have been so fucking vain - but that doesn't detract from the conduct of others in the SSP, nor does it detract from the fact that the SSP, as an organisation, put the personal ahead of politics (as Sheridan did). I wouldn't touch the SSP with a fucking shitty stick, and I don't imagine many working class people in Scotland ever will again.

Not that any of this is relevant to the point I made, namely lying under oath may be a criminal offence but I don't regard it as ethically dodgy in the slightest.

 

[discokermit]

No, you simply ignore what Sheridan did when it conflicts with your attitude on here.

i don't like sheridan. i think he was a twat for starting the whole thing. nowhere near as bad as the touts up there who couldn't wait to get stuck in though.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Innit

 

[Fedayn]

Sheridan is neither the devil nor solely responsible, indeed he is one of a few who have fucked it. However his idiotic decision was the catalyst for much if not all that followed.
No offence but it's farcical to even try to use the collapse of the 'Welsh Left' as any comparison to what happened up here.
As it goes I don't think many people will touch 'the left' in general up here with a shitty stick full stop at present.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Same model, same flaws

 

[Fedayn]

We’ll stand by Tommy

with his mother Alice at the helm.

She said: “I believe that Tommy is the victim of the biggest, most insidious conspiracy since the Dreyfus affair” – a reference to the political scandal that divided France in the 1890s and early 1900s when a French artillery officer of Jewish descent was wrongly accused of treason.

Doh!!!

 

[Proper Tidy]

It is his mum tbf

 

[Fedayn]

It is his mum tbf

I understand that, but that notwithstanding it's frankly laughable.

 

[discokermit]

I understand that, but that notwithstanding it's frankly laughable.

yeh, but it's his mom.

 

[Proper Tidy]

My mum is similarly convinced that I am the victim of a police conspiracy to silence me, on the basis of having been nicked a few times for 'political stuff'. I haven't the heart to tell her it's cos I'm a bit gobby.

 

[Fedayn]

yeh, but it's his mom.

A longstanding political activist, so the idea it's just his mammy doesn't stand up.

 

[Fedayn]

My mum is similarly convinced that I am the victim of a police conspiracy to silence me, on the basis of having been nicked a few times for 'political stuff'. I haven't the heart to tell her it's cos I'm a bit gobby.

My mum knows it's cos i'm gobby.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Mums are ace

 

[Fedayn]

They can be brilliant aye.

 

[discokermit]

Mums are ace

mine isn't. mine's a pig ignorant scab.

 

[Fedayn]

mine isn't. mine's a pig ignorant scab.

Her loss.

 

[Streathamite]

i don't like sheridan. i think he was a twat for starting the whole thing. nowhere near as bad as the touts up there who couldn't wait to get stuck in though.

well that I certainly agree with

 

[Garcia Lorca]

Chill the fuck out? There's the tatters of a Left up here and you want me to 'chill the fuck out'?

theres a left up here?

fuckin hell, its going to be a long while before the smoke clears on this one if ever. its the whole reason that many have taken a complete backseat on any political involvement up here. TS was insane taking this as far as he did, self destruct... except it wasnt just his self that got caught in the blast. it was always going to end one way.

i wish solidarity would give the big conspiracy theory a rest, a hatched plan by news international, the ssp and the police. its cringeworthy at best. i wish it would move on, but i cant see any way for that to happen with so much despise, anger, allegations and sour feeling between so many people.

as much as i personally believe one man brought this upon himself and others, i do not want to see a custodial sentance. hey ho.

 

[Fedayn]

theres a left up here?

fuckin hell, its going to be a long while before the smoke clears on this one if ever. its the whole reason that many have taken a complete backseat on any political involvement up here. TS was insane taking this as far as he did, self destruct... except it wasnt just his self that got caught in the blast. it was always going to end one way.

i wish solidarity would give the big conspiracy theory a rest, a hatched plan by news international, the ssp and the police. its cringeworthy at best. i wish it would move on, but i cant see any way for that to happen with so much despise, anger, allegations and sour feeling between so many people.

as much as i personally believe one man brought this upon himself and others, i do not want to see a custodial sentance. hey ho.

Agree with nearly every word mate.

 

[fiannanahalba]

Did you also support Sheridans insistance on going to British courts in the first place ?

Yes. It was a civil case against NoTW. He wouldnt be in gaol if the entire leadership of the SSP hadnt engaged in a massive exercise in collusion with the Courts and the police.