Rochester & Strood by-election

[co-op]

Thornberry was, I gather brought up on a council estate - hardly the kind of elite liberal she is being made out as

Her father went to Cambridge University and was Assistant Secretary General of the UN, wrote a load of books and was a visiting Professor at Kings College London. I don't know what she was doing being brought up on a council estate but the idea she isn't part of the liberal elite is a bit daft, she was born into it.

 

[Wilf]

what sort of disgusting anti-human cunt are you?

My search for a new tagline is over!

 

[prunus]

allied to viewing policy as a "vote-catcher" rather than a social tool

This, times one thousand, is the problem.

 

[Mr Moose]

My first home was a council flat. I don't claim any working class credentials. I look at where I am to day. You should stop defending sneering privilege.

Louis MacNeice

But you are doing just that. Your sentence could have read 'I don't claim any working class credentials. I look at where I am to day. You should stop defending sneering privilege' but you had to tell us you once lived in a council flat, which then gained a round of applause.

There is also a lot of sneering going on against those unable to make the sudden volte-face that enough nationalism draped over one's house to shut out all natural light along with a flag for the team with arguably UK football's most historically racist fans doesn't make us uneasy. Perhaps you should ask a (fellow perhaps) Scot what they think of that house?

Of course it doesn't mean it was correct to Tweet it and it doesn't mean that snobbery wasn't in the mix, but maybe now this guy's had his day in the Sun and had the opportunity to let the world know that he likes to annoy easily annoyed ethnic minorities the self flagellation can cease.

This exercise will have meant very little to working class people, either those with antipathy towards Labour who will have enjoyed the squirming, or those with antipathy towards flag waving neighbours who may have disliked the fawning. It's a sop to middle class sensibilities offended by offence to a disadvantaged group that sends Labour on the back foot on nationalism and it's problems.

 

[co-op]

...along with a flag for the team with arguably UK football's most historically racist fans doesn't make us uneasy.

That's just bullshit, West Ham aren't even historically the most racist fans in London.

 

[William of Walworth]

Her father went to Cambridge University and was Assistant Secretary General of the UN, wrote a load of books and was a visiting Professor at Kings College London. I don't know what she was doing being brought up on a council estate but the idea she isn't part of the liberal elite is a bit daft, she was born into it.

AFAIK it was after her parents separated or (?) divorced. There was genuine lack of money at one stage I think. Rest of what you say I agree with though.

 

[co-op]

AFAIK it was after her parents separated or (?) divorced. There was genuine lack of money at one stage I think. Rest of what you say I agree with though.

Yes I'd guess it would be something like that but google says her mother was a teacher and Mayor of Guildford so there wasn't exactly poverty, I'd call teachers middle class although of course with childcare it all depends on what kind of support networks you have around you.

 

[William of Walworth]

I guess that would have been the Seventies, Thornberry was born in 1960. Teachers weren't in poverty then, but they were notably less well paid than now. Anyway it doesn't contradict the wider point -- her m/c background was exactly as you outlined.

Anyway I partly agree with Mr Moose (that crap about the West Ham flag aside) concerning this whole fandango. As he says snobbery was definitely there and she was bang out of order to tweet, but some of the really overboard comments about it (here and elsewhere) look somewhat ridiculous to me.

She's been sacked for being an idiot, deservedly, but she's not the only one as plenty have already said -- most politicians are tempted to think like she did but most are shrewd enough to keep it to themselves, and its those who hide it who are the worst elitists/snobs//hypocrites IMO. And that's across all parties, plenty of Labour definitely, but Tories and (I have zero doubt) UKIP very much included.

My real issue with this by-election is something that's not even been discussed over the past six or seven pages here -- UKIP continue to pose as the outsider/anti-elite/anti-establishment party when they are no different whatsoever than the others in that respect.

Owen Jones wrote what I thought was a pretty reasonable piece on Saturday including a passing mention of some voters both in Clacton and Rochester who said they were voting UKIP because the sitting MP had done nothing for them/the area, not sure how much real evidence there is for that (anecdotes are unsafe after all) but UKIP are the biggest snake-oil merchants going anywhere to be so successful at conning people to that extent. Says nothing for their opponents either for them being so rubbish, not even trying to exploit the gaping holes and inconsistencies in UKIP's story and candidates.

And we've barely discussed UKIP at all on this thread lately. Well done for that, Emily Thornberry , but she's really not THAT important.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Her father went to Cambridge University and was Assistant Secretary General of the UN, wrote a load of books and was a visiting Professor at Kings College London. I don't know what she was doing being brought up on a council estate but the idea she isn't part of the liberal elite is a bit daft, she was born into it.

Her parents split, and her mum got custody, hence the council estate.

 

[treelover]

Her father went to Cambridge University and was Assistant Secretary General of the UN, wrote a load of books and was a visiting Professor at Kings College London. I don't know what she was doing being brought up on a council estate but the idea she isn't part of the liberal elite is a bit daft, she was born into it.

To a degree, contacts, etc, but like many women who get divorced her mother went through some hard times and until she went to university ET had very little.

 

[ViolentPanda]

But you are doing just that. Your sentence could have read 'I don't claim any working class credentials. I look at where I am to day. You should stop defending sneering privilege' but you had to tell us you once lived in a council flat, which then gained a round of applause.

Or perhaps he was illustrating that one can come from a council estate, "make good", and still not be a condescending cunt a la Thornberry.

There is also a lot of sneering going on against those unable to make the sudden volte-face that enough nationalism draped over one's house to shut out all natural light...

White cloth doesn't block out much natural light unless it's very heavy duty, like canvas. Most flags nowadays are made from high denier polyester, which is about as lightfast as a pair of tights.

....along with a flag for the team with arguably UK football's most historically racist fans doesn't make us uneasy. Perhaps you should ask a (fellow perhaps) Scot what they think of that house?

WHUFC have the "most historically racist fans"? If you believe that, then in London alone you can never have been to The Den, or Stamford Bridge. "Arguably" isn't even in the running.

Of course it doesn't mean it was correct to Tweet it and it doesn't mean that snobbery wasn't in the mix, but maybe now this guy's had his day in the Sun and had the opportunity to let the world know that he likes to annoy easily annoyed ethnic minorities the self flagellation can cease.

This exercise will have meant very little to working class people, either those with antipathy towards Labour who will have enjoyed the squirming, or those with antipathy towards flag waving neighbours who may have disliked the fawning. It's a sop to middle class sensibilities offended by offence to a disadvantaged group that sends Labour on the back foot on nationalism and it's problems.

I have to ask: Who the buggering fuck are YOU to speak for the working class?

 

[ViolentPanda]

That's just bullshit, West Ham aren't even historically the most racist fans in London.

Unless you've never seen Millwall or Chelsea on their home turf.
Still, it's easier for Mr Moose to trot out trite bollocks about West Ham that isn't historically reflected either by their players or fans, than to actually know what he's talking about.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

But you are doing just that. Your sentence could have read 'I don't claim any working class credentials. I look at where I am to day. You should stop defending sneering privilege' but you had to tell us you once lived in a council flat, which then gained a round of applause.

Sorry what am I doing? Defending sneering privilege or claiming working class credentials? I don't see how it can be the former. And as for the later; my whole point is that just like Emily, I can't claim any such credentials because of where I used to live.

I told you I once lived in a council house because articul8 cited Thornberry's childhood experience as evidence; I was giving a pertinent - and close to home - example to point up the flimsiness of his argument.

Also you might want to think about how you are able to discern the motivations of people giving likes to posts (the 'round of applause'); perhaps they appreciated the countering of articul8's position rather than any nostalgic image I might have conjured up of baby Louis.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[killer b]

I think getting distracted by the minutae of her proletarian (or otherwise) roots misses the point a bit. Snobbery is snobbery.

 

[Mr Moose]

I have to ask: Who the buggering fuck are YOU to speak for the working class?

I'm not VP, I'm saying people will have very different reactions about this, Ed's outrage mirroring only some.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'm not VP, I'm saying people will have very different reactions about this, Ed's outrage mirroring only some.

You stated "This exercise will have meant very little to working class people, either those with antipathy towards Labour who will have enjoyed the squirming, or those with antipathy towards flag waving neighbours who may have disliked the fawning."
In other words you presented the above as "what the working class are thinking", when you'd no evidence to support your statement - if that isn't "speaking for the working class"< I don't know what is!

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think getting distracted by the minutae of her proletarian (or otherwise) roots misses the point a bit. Snobbery is snobbery.

Quite, whether it's Hyacinth Bucket or Emily Thornberry.

 

[Mr Moose]

Quite, whether it's Hyacinth Bucket or Emily Thornberry.

Tbf easy to mix the two up.

 

[Mr Moose]

You stated "This exercise will have meant very little to working class people, either those with antipathy towards Labour who will have enjoyed the squirming, or those with antipathy towards flag waving neighbours who may have disliked the fawning."
In other words you presented the above as "what the working class are thinking", when you'd no evidence to support your statement - if that isn't "speaking for the working class"< I don't know what is!

No it's not. I'm speculating. I don't accept the closedown argument that the flag has, for all, evolved into virtual neutrality.

 

[DotCommunist]

it appears mellor has been at it, sun front page story. But, crucially, everyone knows thats what tories think anyway. So less milage here. Also its not as bad as plebgate for some reason- lack of swearing maybe


he sais to a cabbie:

You've been driving a cab for 10 years? I have been in the cabinet, I am an award-winning broadcaster, I'm a Queen's Counsel, you think your experiences are anything compared to mine? Just shut up.
"Drive me whichever way you want, and keep a civil tongue in your head."

 

[DotCommunist]

I can even hear the sneering arrogance of a well-bred tone saying it

 

[Mr Moose]

Renders all broadcasting awards meaningless if he has one.

 

[articul8]

it appears mellor has been at it, sun front page story. But, crucially, everyone knows thats what tories think anyway. So less milage here. Also its not as bad as plebgate for some reason- lack of swearing maybe


he sais to a cabbie:

Now that is properly fucking offensive.

 

[articul8]

The words "I'm an award winning broadcaster" are just so

 

[Mr Moose]

it appears mellor has been at it, sun front page story. But, crucially, everyone knows thats what tories think anyway. So less milage here. Also its not as bad as plebgate for some reason- lack of swearing maybe


he sais to a cabbie:

Actually plenty of swearing. Vile behaviour.

 

[DotCommunist]

Actually plenty of swearing. Vile behaviour.

have you a full transcript? I just flicked through the newstand athe shop

 

[coley]

What did he get a broadcasting award for?

 

[ska invita]

Now that is properly fucking offensive.

only to a point, the cabbie had wound him up, we dont how, and then sat back and recorded his work - ETs was completely unprovoked

 

[articul8]

They aren't comparable at all - Thornberry did not mean to personally belittle anyone

 

[belboid]

They aren't comparable at all - Thornberry did not mean to personally belittle anyone

Except whoever owned the van and put the flags up.