Shippou-Sensei
4:1:2.5
Had a student who was from a traveler background. Other students did tease him for it. Very unpleasant.
Really nice guy too.
Really nice guy too.
Racism towards Travellers in the UK
- Thread starter Orang Utan
- Start date
Peter Painter
Well-Known Member
I picked up a copy of this at Glastonbury. There's a Travellers area there called Atchin Tan. Got talking to a couple of traveller campaigners. TT is on FB, so I follow to keep up with issues.
Government award £10million to improve Traveller sites – but more needed say campaigners
www.travellerstimes.org.uk
I'm glad you found the Atchin Tan (it means, 'stopping place', in Romany) and took the time to speak to some of the people there. This year was its second year and it'll be back again next year.
It's not just about Romany or Irish travellers though, it's also concerned with the rights and welfare of new (age) travellers. It's a positive nod (along with CarHenge this year) to the influence that new travellers have had upon the festival over the years.
As with other travellers we often face prejudice and discrimination from the public and from the authorities. The criminalisation of trespass will effect us just as much (if not more) than other travellers. The legislation is just the latest attempt to disrupt our lives but it won't work. We will simply do what we always have, we will mutate and we will survive.
Unlike the Roma and the Irish, new (age) travellers are not recognised in law. Whilst there obviously isn't the same kind of history and tradition, new travellers have been about (and we still are) for close to half a century now. Many of us chose the road but there are also now quite a number of second and third generation new travellers who were born on the road. They had no choice, where are their rights and recognition in law?
chainsawjob
Kipping in the dunes
Thanks for that Peter Painter
Yeah I'll try and spend more time there next year. I was chatting to members of the Gorja Band.
Yeah I'll try and spend more time there next year. I was chatting to members of the Gorja Band.
The lifestyle appeals to me somewhat. I looked into boating at one point and then every man and his dog are doing it nowadays so kind of decided against it.
I don’t think living on a boat immediately makes me an oppressed minority though. Although I’d probably need to live it first to have an informed view.
I don’t think living on a boat immediately makes me an oppressed minority though. Although I’d probably need to live it first to have an informed view.
newme
Giant in Pastyland now
We used to give a lift to a local idk the classification or whatever but traveller/gypsy/whatever girl who was on the way to school. They had a not legal area nearby and I have no idea what the circumstances that lead to this but my mum picked her up on the way and they seemed nice enough. Had maybe 4 sites nearby over my childhood, 3 were absolutely shite, rubbish, hassle, etc, one was a semi perm but illegal site where there was just a lot of caravans out the way. Tho people did warn me off going there I never heard any trouble and it was there years.
Since then I lived with a new age traveller who used to live in a bus for several years, who had it turned out horrendous opinions on gypsys, based they said on the mess left behind and how it tarred all with all brush. Sounds sensible(ish) if you take the point it made her seem worse cos she had no permanent address, until I heard their opinions on those of a different race to themselves and extricated myself from the situation, not the only reason but it did contribute. Did a random facebook on them a few years back and wow it was or now is, considerably worse than I ever imagined.
In the last 10 years all I heard was group of people with caravans and motorbikes has taken over area, each time it was a big mess, huge expense to clear, etc. I don't care who does stuff that causes hassle for others, I only care that they are causing the hassle. I think that is the case for most people. Ed Stafford tried to do a reasonable documentary on it and got burgled or attempted I cannot remember properly, its not all people of whatever type of course but it does not help when a bunch of people are ignoring societal norms to the detriment of everyone else nearby. If I did that I should expect people to be bloody annoyed at me.
Since then I lived with a new age traveller who used to live in a bus for several years, who had it turned out horrendous opinions on gypsys, based they said on the mess left behind and how it tarred all with all brush. Sounds sensible(ish) if you take the point it made her seem worse cos she had no permanent address, until I heard their opinions on those of a different race to themselves and extricated myself from the situation, not the only reason but it did contribute. Did a random facebook on them a few years back and wow it was or now is, considerably worse than I ever imagined.
In the last 10 years all I heard was group of people with caravans and motorbikes has taken over area, each time it was a big mess, huge expense to clear, etc. I don't care who does stuff that causes hassle for others, I only care that they are causing the hassle. I think that is the case for most people. Ed Stafford tried to do a reasonable documentary on it and got burgled or attempted I cannot remember properly, its not all people of whatever type of course but it does not help when a bunch of people are ignoring societal norms to the detriment of everyone else nearby. If I did that I should expect people to be bloody annoyed at me.
krtek a houby
Merry Xmas!
It's really not helpful comparing people to animals.
Puddy_Tat
naturally fluffy
it's not something i'm expert in, but i'm aware that councils do provide designated traveller sites. i don't know if it's something councils are legally obliged to do, or something councils have the powers to do if they want.
but vaguely aware of a proposal for a new one somewhere round here, and shall we say it wasn't the most popular idea that council has had in recent years...
Humberto
Callooh! Callay!
Pscyhosis is a disability and will only get more common.
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
This also holds true for festivals, Glastonbury included. Massive amount of crap left behind. No-one being evicted at short notice, no excuse. Some people just behave like slobs at times.
krtek a houby
Merry Xmas!
You seem a bit confused
chainsawjob
Kipping in the dunes
Yes, I think they do have a statuary duty to, but from the article I posted above, I think often as little money as possible has been spent on them, and many are negelcted and in need of maintenance and updating. And there are certainly not enough of them for what's needed.
The government does seem to want to eradicate this way of life/ethnic group, by not providing sufficient facilities, and by the new criminal trespass laws making things much harder for travellers.
Peter Painter
Well-Known Member
There are some, that's true. But not very many, nowhere near enough.
According to research from 2021 there were 1696 families on waiting lists for pitches but only 59 permanent pitches and 42 transit pitches available nationwide.
New research shows huge unmet need for pitches on Traveller sites in England - Friends, Families and Travellers
Today, Friends, Families and Travellers (FFT) have released new research showing the shocking lack of pitches available on public Traveller sites in England. The report reveals that whilst over 1696 households are currently on waiting lists […]
www.gypsy-traveller.org
I have personally never had a pitch on a permanent site but have been parked on temporary sites maybe three or four times in the last twenty five years or so. During the summer I'm sorted for a park-up because I work at various festivals but this only accounts for about 3-4 months of the year. The rest of the time I am usually parked on unauthorised encampments which mostly means I am squatting/committing trespass. As this is now a criminal offence it means I could face having my home seized and be imprisoned.
Even before the new legislation regarding trespass was passed the authorities already had considerable power to evict and move us on. Under the 1994 Criminal Justice Act the police had power to evict immediately if there were more than six vehicles on the site (Section 61). If a Section 61 is used then you cannot return to that piece of land for six months. I have personally had a section 61 served on me more times than I care to remember. It has been known (not normal practice though) for the police to include bicycles and pushchairs as vehicles!
If the local authority has an available pitch on an authorised site then the police can issue a Section 62. This means that they offer you a pitch and if you refuse to take it then you must leave the entire county and cannot return anywhere to anywhere in that county for six months. This has been used on me once. It was in West Sussex and there was one pitch available. It was on a site in Chichester that was filled with Irish travellers. If one of us had opted to go there we would have not been made welcome because we would have taken a pitch that could instead have gone to another Irish traveller family. Not to mention the fact that our little crew would have been split up. So one by one the five of us were offered the pitch and as each of us declined all of us then had to leave the county immediately and not return for six months.
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kalidarkone
Bringing YOU round.....
@
Not that much has changed in terms of those sites being provided. Also it was apparent early on that the diversity of culture within the travelling community needed to be accommodated, as clearly they are not a homogeneous group.
The irony now of course is that due to lack and expense of housing, a whole other group of people are having to live on wheels as there is no other alternative. Therefore the demand and need for mobile sites is probably at its highest .
Over 30 years ago I was a volunteer at shelter and worked quite closely with a councillor dedicated to getting the local authority to discharge their duty to travellers and provide sites.
Not that much has changed in terms of those sites being provided. Also it was apparent early on that the diversity of culture within the travelling community needed to be accommodated, as clearly they are not a homogeneous group.
The irony now of course is that due to lack and expense of housing, a whole other group of people are having to live on wheels as there is no other alternative. Therefore the demand and need for mobile sites is probably at its highest .
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
I can only speak for Llanelli (did I really want to say that?) but...yes and no.
Llanelli has a long established travellers site. Two actually. One for Irish (a small one) and one for non-Irish (a big one). There are plans for another site and that's meeting great opposition so that's the no bit.
But. The original site is something like 50 years old. Travellers are well established in the town. I work with their kids. They all call themselves gypsies. Or half-gypsy. Because integration is taking place after all that time, as is natural I'd have thought, and gypsies are marrying into the community and moving into traditional homes. Which is kind of the yes part.
Of course they still face great discrimination. And yes, our traveller/gypsy kids are often among the most racist. I see part of my job as fighting that paradox, the discriminated against being discriminatory.
It's an uphill struggle. But integration doesn't come easy when faced with a history of years of prejudice.
pinkmonkey
2.4 hour party person
My small Yorkshire hometown is very working class and from reading the FB group there is little prejudice. There was a big funeral here last year with 1000 Romany showing up, they were welcomed and a site for their wagons was organised in a nearby village. I honestly think it depends how rich the neighbourhood is how NIMBY the neighbours will be - I think of the bullying that boaters get at the Noel Road visitor moorings in Islington (Bojo lives on that road). There is a women who knocks on your door at night and demands to see what you’re burning and also screams at the fuel boats to ‘turn their generator off’ (it’s a single pot Bolinder
) when they’re serving. They’ve complained to their mp, you’re not allowed to use your burner there anymore, you’re not allowed to run your engine to charge your batteries, really they don’t want anyone there, either static or passing through. It’s constant harassment. Honestly what some folks do because they don’t like us, theres a fella in Milton Keynes who digs over all the turf on the towpath so it’s just mud, because he doesn’t like boats and he knows we don’t want to walk it inside. Imagine what it’s like for ethnic travellers, it must be dreadful.
Flavour
hang the bankers
the social acceptability of racism toward the Romani people in Italy is utterly shocking, i can say that much.
there is a Romani family squatting an apartment near me. things have degenerated a bit recently. i think the Dad is in prison, or at least that's the word on the block. haven't seen him for a couple of months. the kids (two boys aged around 3 to 6) are bored out of their minds (they don't go to school) and just create chaos in the communal garden, constantly littering, even, and in particular, underneath their own balcony. it's not easy to witness to be honest. there has been a petition among local residents to have them evicted -- i think there's very slim chance of that happening given the circumstances. i didn't sign.
there is a Romani family squatting an apartment near me. things have degenerated a bit recently. i think the Dad is in prison, or at least that's the word on the block. haven't seen him for a couple of months. the kids (two boys aged around 3 to 6) are bored out of their minds (they don't go to school) and just create chaos in the communal garden, constantly littering, even, and in particular, underneath their own balcony. it's not easy to witness to be honest. there has been a petition among local residents to have them evicted -- i think there's very slim chance of that happening given the circumstances. i didn't sign.
krtek a houby
Merry Xmas!
It varies in Ireland from acceptance to grudging tolerance to outright loathing.
The kind of people who shout loudly things like "look after our own first" when talking about refugees/asylum seekers/immigrants are amongst those who do the loathing, ime.
Shippou-Sensei
4:1:2.5
I dunno most boaters seem to take this attitude towards the canal and rivers trust.
(joke)
Rob Ray
Weight is meaningless
As with so many of these things it seems to become much easier if you have a bit of money for mooring fees and can pass as acceptably middle class. Most of the boaters I've known in London get a fair bit of shit, especially from the Canal and River Trust which seems to think it exists to represent the owners of bougie blocks of riverside flats and has been aggressively campaigning to shut down people doing the circuit. NBTA is one place for keeping up with that end of it.
Peter Painter
Well-Known Member
I believe that, as with most racism, the prejudice and discrimination comes from a place of fear and ignorance.
Just before lockdown a few of us pulled onto a large piece of wasteland in an urban area. It had previously been the site of a school but all the buildings had been demolished some years before. In the intervening period it had been used by locals to walk their dogs and by the local youth who appeared to have mostly been smashing bottles on the ground.
As soon as we pulled on there was quite a commotion, we had several people shout abuse at us with all the usual shitty comments such as, "pay some taxes", "get a job", and "you're lowering the price of our property". We also managed to gain access to the local "nextdoor neighbour" webpage and were able to read the many negative comments made about us and our arrival by some of the local community.
Within a few days the council arrived. They weren't too bad actually, they said that this was probably the least worst place for us to be and that they could let us stay for three or four weeks. Two weeks later lockdown happened and so we got to stay there for much longer.
We soon started clearing the place up, starting with the broken glass. There was so much of it, we must have filled the wheelbarrow about a dozen times! Whilst we were doing it some of the locals saw us and asked what why we were doing it. "Well, because we have dogs and children and it's not safe for them, and just because it's a right horrible mess", we told them. They looked rather bemused!
Then we started planting some flowers and tomatoes, hung a couple of tyre swings from the trees for the kids, and opened and cleared up the caged AstroTurf five-a-side football pitch that had clearly not been used for a few years.
As time went by the locals began to realise that we were no threat to them, we weren't robbing their houses or causing any nuisance. Rather than making a mess we were improving the place. We made a makeshift stile so that we and they could access the site more easily and always left the main gate on a chain that could be opened wide enough to let dogs through. Quite a few of the local kids often came up to use the football pitch that we'd opened up. Slowly and surely people started talking to us, some would stay a while and accept a cup of tea. Before too long we had made friends with a number of the locals and word got round, we were being accepted as part of the local community.
After lockdown finished the council soon sold the land for building development and served us with an eviction notice. The locals weren't happy that they would no longer have their dog-walking area and they were sorry to see us go. One woman told us that since we'd been there she'd felt safe to walk her dog there in the evening when previously she'd not wanted to because of the presence of anti-social youngsters (probably those who'd been smashing the bottles).
We were there for less than two years but the change in the attitude towards us during this time was remarkable. There were still a couple of people who didn't like us but by and large we had changed their perception of us. This was, I think, because they had got to properly meet us. They were no longer ignorant or fearful and their prejudices had been challenged. This only happened because of the lockdown. If we'd have been moved on after three or four weeks their attitude would probably never have changed.
I realise that not all travellers behave the way we do, and those who don't give us all a bad name. But as with any section of society you will get good and bad. Unfortunately media coverage is nearly always negative and this helps to perpetuate the negative and prejudiced perception that many people have with regard to travellers.
Just before lockdown a few of us pulled onto a large piece of wasteland in an urban area. It had previously been the site of a school but all the buildings had been demolished some years before. In the intervening period it had been used by locals to walk their dogs and by the local youth who appeared to have mostly been smashing bottles on the ground.
As soon as we pulled on there was quite a commotion, we had several people shout abuse at us with all the usual shitty comments such as, "pay some taxes", "get a job", and "you're lowering the price of our property". We also managed to gain access to the local "nextdoor neighbour" webpage and were able to read the many negative comments made about us and our arrival by some of the local community.
Within a few days the council arrived. They weren't too bad actually, they said that this was probably the least worst place for us to be and that they could let us stay for three or four weeks. Two weeks later lockdown happened and so we got to stay there for much longer.
We soon started clearing the place up, starting with the broken glass. There was so much of it, we must have filled the wheelbarrow about a dozen times! Whilst we were doing it some of the locals saw us and asked what why we were doing it. "Well, because we have dogs and children and it's not safe for them, and just because it's a right horrible mess", we told them. They looked rather bemused!
Then we started planting some flowers and tomatoes, hung a couple of tyre swings from the trees for the kids, and opened and cleared up the caged AstroTurf five-a-side football pitch that had clearly not been used for a few years.
As time went by the locals began to realise that we were no threat to them, we weren't robbing their houses or causing any nuisance. Rather than making a mess we were improving the place. We made a makeshift stile so that we and they could access the site more easily and always left the main gate on a chain that could be opened wide enough to let dogs through. Quite a few of the local kids often came up to use the football pitch that we'd opened up. Slowly and surely people started talking to us, some would stay a while and accept a cup of tea. Before too long we had made friends with a number of the locals and word got round, we were being accepted as part of the local community.
After lockdown finished the council soon sold the land for building development and served us with an eviction notice. The locals weren't happy that they would no longer have their dog-walking area and they were sorry to see us go. One woman told us that since we'd been there she'd felt safe to walk her dog there in the evening when previously she'd not wanted to because of the presence of anti-social youngsters (probably those who'd been smashing the bottles).
We were there for less than two years but the change in the attitude towards us during this time was remarkable. There were still a couple of people who didn't like us but by and large we had changed their perception of us. This was, I think, because they had got to properly meet us. They were no longer ignorant or fearful and their prejudices had been challenged. This only happened because of the lockdown. If we'd have been moved on after three or four weeks their attitude would probably never have changed.
I realise that not all travellers behave the way we do, and those who don't give us all a bad name. But as with any section of society you will get good and bad. Unfortunately media coverage is nearly always negative and this helps to perpetuate the negative and prejudiced perception that many people have with regard to travellers.
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We have more in common with Travellers than I realised, particularly Orthodox Jews. I read an excellent AMA on Mumsnet with a Traveller woman and one thing she mentioned that struck me was purity laws, which aren't dissimilar to shomer negiah/the laws of family purity, like certain foods or body parts being unclean. OK, an Orthodox Jewish girl would never dress like a Traveller girl and Jewish men don't solve their problems with fist fighting. But neither of them would breastfeed in front of a man.
The legal firm I used to work for had Traveller clients who were involved in a money laundering ring and they were a nightmare to deal with, and we recently had a big gang of Traveller kids in Manchester who blocked the tram line near the Printworks, and were running through the Arndale spitting at shop staff and all sorts. There was a huge crowd of them on the line and they wouldn't move for ages. When I was growing up in Chester, I remember Travellers camped at Sainsbury's in Boughton and getting into fights with locals. BUT I'm not going to tar all Travellers with the same brush because I hate it when people do it to Jews. The shitbag ones get the attention, the nicer ones don't. For instance, there was a massive push by Travellers to donate bags and bags of food to food banks at Christmas, we're talking whole trolleys full. But that didn't get much attention from the press and it's sad. Likewise, there are Jews who are sound and Jews who are horrible racist cunts, Jews who hit on gentile women and assume they're prostitutes because they're not covered up, Jews who abuse their wives and kids, and so on.
My Big Fast Gypsy Wedding did so much damage. Quite a few Roma/Travellers have had to point out that no, grabbing is not a thing in their communities.
kalidarkone
Bringing YOU round.....
Spymaster
One of my best mates is black, mixed race, Antiguan and recently discovered Romani heritage via her late mother. (Her ma was full Romani) She and her black brother, black daughter and black granddaughter all went to a huge Romani family reunion in Gloucester and were welcomed with open arms.
I'm saying this because in my experience as a black woman I experience a diversity of racism and prejudice from every corner, however I also experience acceptance and open minds too.
BTW I'm not diminishing or dismissing the negative experience you have had.
One of my best mates is black, mixed race, Antiguan and recently discovered Romani heritage via her late mother. (Her ma was full Romani) She and her black brother, black daughter and black granddaughter all went to a huge Romani family reunion in Gloucester and were welcomed with open arms.
I'm saying this because in my experience as a black woman I experience a diversity of racism and prejudice from every corner, however I also experience acceptance and open minds too.
BTW I'm not diminishing or dismissing the negative experience you have had.
kalidarkone
Bringing YOU round.....
My issue with your post is that you are lumping all travellers together and not recognising the diversity within the traveller community. Much the same as People of colour being referred to as BME as if we are one homogeneous group.
I sure there are plenty of new age travellers that would breastfeed publicly.
I think specifics are important.
Other then that I understand and appreciate your post.
pinkmonkey
2.4 hour party person
One of my boating friends, her traveller heritage is from a family of Jewish travellers who ran a circus travelling through Russia! Theres a lot online about it if you search Jewish circus families, perhaps thats where the intersection of beliefs comes from?
My bad, I should have been more specific: I meant Irish Travellers. Not New Age ones. I don't know if they have purity laws like Irish Travellers or Roma people do. I've just remembered as well: Roma AND Irish Travellers have a word for outsiders like we do. They say 'gadje' or 'gorger', we say 'goyim'. Which means 'nations' and isn't a slur, it's just a word for a gentile or non-Jew, but some gentiles get very upset about being called 'goyim' and insist it is a slur. 'Sheygetz' and 'shiksa' are far more offensive IMO.
Re Flavour's comment about the Roma family, I'm not surprised. Italy was where two Roma girls drowned and people just ignored their bodies on the beach. Roma people are treated like shit in some Eastern European countries, like being made to live on toxic waste dumps or in houses with lead paint. And Jews at least get acknowledged on HMD, Roma people get ignored half the time. Whole communities were wiped out in the Porrajmos.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
I've no experience of Romani gypsies. Only Irish travellers. I'm sure there are decent people among them, I've just never met any.
I had this discussion with Dubversion, years ago. I don't think my position has changed since.
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