Possible serious side effects from the Astra Zeneca vaccine discussion

[IC3D]

The Wuhan Institute of Virology should double down on the success of 2020 with a new bat virus hybrid with milder symptoms to take on covid 19. The rollout will obviously be easier to implement that the current vaccine program.

 

[kabbes]

There's also the issue of fear of the unknown, and the pandemic circumstances are new, even if getting vaccinated isn't - people afraid of flying might get told that they're statistically more likely to die in a car crash on the way to the airport than in a plane crash, but I think that sometimes just makes them more nervous on the way to the airport as well.

I think it's alternatively/also the illusion of being in control (which in turn is probably a form of the "fundamental attribution error"). If we think we are in control of a risk, we feel better about it and we ignore the fact that all the other people that died also felt in control. But I don't think this is insurmountable with the right analogy and context.

 

[MickiQ]

The issue with avoiding 50% of the stairs is that you are now half way up the stairs and have to walk back down again, meaning you have done 100% of the stairs, and you don’t have whatever it was you wanted to go upstairs for.

Your logic is flawless

 

[SheilaNaGig]

I’ll try to avoid it. It’s the addictiveness of being right on the internet. You should have seen my masterful takedown of kabbes’ stair avoidance schemes.

Your constant nit picking of my posts is of a different calibre though.

You've made a joke about the content of Kabbes’ post, the information given, whereas with me you seem determined to paint me as some kind of suspect villain.

You've done it again here, saying that while you’ll condescend to avoid pulling me up unnecessarily, you maintain that you’re correct, which still puts me in the wrong.


It’s really shit.

 

[cupid_stunt]

I now have a nice counter to people who chunter about me always taking the lift at work though, so cheers for that.

I reduce my risk by living in a bungalow.

 

[Doodler]

If the level of abuse versus debate remains so high, it may not be worth staying..

You are one of the more amusing trolls I've seen here.

 

[8ball]

You've done it again here, saying that while you’ll condescend to avoid pulling me up unnecessarily, you maintain that you’re correct, which still puts me in the wrong.

I’m sorry my tone was off there, but in terms of my point about the general acceptance and appropriateness of the term side effects - are you expecting me to retract that?

 

[zahir]

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think it's alternatively/also the illusion of being in control (which in turn is probably a form of the "fundamental attribution error"). If we think we are in control of a risk, we feel better about it and we ignore the fact that all the other people that died also felt in control. But I don't think this is insurmountable with the right analogy and context.

Definitely a lot of this. But there's also the issue of level of knowledge. So I'm guessing the old and infirm are overrepresented among the stair tumblers (and probably also the very young - only time I've done it I was 3). So if you're not old or infirm or very young, you can be more confident in your stairway survival chances.

That sense of powerlessness wrt fear of flying is very powerful and can't be reasoned away if you have it. With the vaccine it feels very similar. Nothing you can do to change your odds.

Fwiw I agree mostly with girasol. It does feel like the vaccines have been rushed through, but I can understand why and it was probably right to rush them a bit. The calculation of risk-reward changes as we go down the age groups, though. If you're a healthy 20- something, a rare risk from vaccination will be much closer in size to the rare risk of dying from covid.

 

[8ball]

Bang on point in terms of honest communication (I haven’t really looked properly into the stats surrounding the clots so not commenting specifically on that).

Unfortunately the whole thing became political ages ago - it’s hard to see a way back.

 

[editor]

In my experience and observation, people tend to dismiss the side effects as less important, or something they can ignore, or something they should try to ignore, or something they should just try to live with. Especially if they are fairly low key, like constipation or sleeplessness or dry mouth. Even when it impacts on their sense of well being, they’ll try to live with it. Even sometimes quite serious side effects get ignored or they just try to deal with it silently. Instead of trying to didn’t a solution, they’ll suffer.

When reframed as unwanted effects they’re more likely to seek help, support, tell their GP about it.



Once again 8ball you've pulled me up for something with the apparent assumption that I’m talking bollocks, or making shit up, getting things wrong, being a bad actor, some kind of dangerous thoughtless charlatan. I’m really fed up with it.

May I recommend putting him on ignore?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Bang on point in terms of honest communication (I haven’t really looked properly into the stats surrounding the clots so not commenting specifically on that).

Unfortunately the whole thing became political ages ago - it’s hard to see a way back.

That's a point that is very generally true as well. In an open society it is almost never the right thing to do to withhold information or stifle debate. There have been various points in this pandemic where this hasn't been followed very well here in the UK. The secrecy around SAGE for instance, where in other countries their SAGE equivalents have been completely transparent.

 

[editor]

Very sympathetic about your family situation but there is no scientific evidence to support a connection between the vaccine and blood clotting. Correlation is not causation. Every political or medical avoidance of the vaccine has been overturned when the figures have been further analysed. That is science and medicine working as it should.

Poster says 'do not quote' and you go right ahead and quote anyway.

 

[8ball]

Fwiw I agree mostly with girasol. It does feel like the vaccines have been rushed through, but I can understand why and it was probably right to rush them a bit.

Agree on the “feels rushed” bit, but I’ve seen nothing to convince me this the case in reality, more the opposite.
I think it’s mostly that these vaccines have been more closely scrutinised and monitored than anything equivalent in history.

If, say, a new diptheria vaccine came out that increased the risk of some kind of incredibly rare event, I think it’s likely we would never notice or attribute it to the vaccine.

 

[kabbes]

Definitely a lot of this. But there's also the issue of level of knowledge. So I'm guessing the old and infirm are overrepresented among the stair tumblers (and probably also the very young - only time I've done it I was 3). So if you're not old or infirm or very young, you can be more confident in your stairway survival chances.

That sense of powerlessness wrt fear of flying is very powerful and can't be reasoned away if you have it. With the vaccine it feels very similar. Nothing you can do to change your odds.

Fwiw I agree mostly with girasol. It does feel like the vaccines have been rushed through, but I can understand why and it was probably right to rush them a bit. The calculation of risk-reward changes as we go down the age groups, though. If you're a healthy 20- something, a rare risk from vaccination will be much closer in size to the rare risk of dying from covid.

In the main I've tried to avoid discussions on here about vaccine hesitancy because the kabbess is writing a lengthy essay on the subject, which means I have been embroiled for the last month at home in endless academic discussions about it (she constructs her thinking by talking, which I personally find a bit exhausting but I digress). Suffice to say that I broadly agree with your points here, and that one of the difficulties in grappling with the issue is that for 20-somethings, the individual short-term risk argument is probably in favour of not taking any COVID vaccine at this time. So to argue from the perspective of "individual benefits vs individual risks" is actually a poor battlefield to choose. A collectivist argument works far better, but is flying in the face of decades of neoliberal subjectification.

(I also recognise that stair climbing risks are age-related, but it was the first analogy that came to mind and the 10-fold risk differential seemed too good to pass up).

 

[kabbes]

Bang on point in terms of honest communication (I haven’t really looked properly into the stats surrounding the clots so not commenting specifically on that).

Unfortunately the whole thing became political ages ago - it’s hard to see a way back.

Even when you engage in "honest" communication, though, you still represent a perspective in the way that you present that communication. There is no such thing as neutral, objective communication. You can be honest about this risks whilst placing them in their proper context.

 

[8ball]

...for 20-somethings, the individual short-term risk argument is probably in favour of not taking any COVID vaccine at this time. So to argue from the perspective of "individual benefits vs individual risks" is actually a poor battlefield to choose. A collectivist argument works far better, but is flying in the face of decades of neoliberal subjectification.

That feels like a battle that has already been won - huge numbers of 20-somethings submitted to losing a year of social life and a bunch of other things during their prime in order to protect older adults.

 

[kabbes]

That feels like a battle that has already been won - huge numbers of 20-somethings submitted to losing a year of social life and a bunch of other things during their prime in order to protect older adults.

Not sure they perceived themselves to have much choice!

 

[planetgeli]

Your logic is flawless

I got the pun, even if nobody else did.

This thread was a good idea, started well by Riklet

Shame it descended into shit so quickly.

 

[bimble]

That feels like a battle that has already been won - huge numbers of 20-somethings submitted to losing a year of social life and a bunch of other things during their prime in order to protect older adults.

I like seeing things that way too. The whole of the lockdowns, its been possible to look at the closed pubs and empty pavements and (if you squint just a little bit) see selflessness and sacrifice for the benefit of total strangers.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

I’m sorry my tone was off there, but in terms of my point about the general acceptance and appropriateness of the term side effects - are you expecting me to retract that?

Blood clots - if it turns out they are caused by the vaccine - is a pretty central effect.


There is nothing anti-scientific or irresponsible in saying so.


What if the term “side effects” was simply considered expedient when it was first coined. What if it’s a colloquialism. Why are you so attached to it.


This is silly.

If it matters to you this much, I’ll go ahead and use the term “side effects” on here and just go on saying “unwanted effects” in the real world with people who experience the vomiting and hair loss of chemo, the severe headaches, the dry mouth, insomnia, constipation, kidney issues, and all the other things that impact their lives as a result of the medicines they take. And no, I never ever tell people to stop taking their meds. Despite being misunderstood/misrepresented by you and several others on here, I am not a dangerous snake oil peddling charlatan with an anti-science agenda.

Have the last word if you like, I’m done with this discussion.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

In the main I've tried to avoid discussions on here about vaccine hesitancy because the kabbess is writing a lengthy essay on the subject, which means I have been embroiled for the last month at home in endless academic discussions about it (she constructs her thinking by talking, which I personally find a bit exhausting but I digress). Suffice to say that I broadly agree with your points here, and that one of the difficulties in grappling with the issue is that for 20-somethings, the individual short-term risk argument is probably in favour of not taking any COVID vaccine at this time. So to argue from the perspective of "individual benefits vs individual risks" is actually a poor battlefield to choose. A collectivist argument works far better, but is flying in the face of decades of neoliberal subjectification.

(I also recognise that stair climbing risks are age-related, but it was the first analogy that came to mind and the 10-fold risk differential seemed too good to pass up).

One of the problems here is that, as any bookie will tell you, many people aren't great at probability. I don't think reporting has helped in this regard. The BBC has been particularly bad with sensationalist reporting, so a feature on a young person with severe covid to emphasise that it can hit the young hard too, or reporting of a child dying with covid to stress that children can die of it too. Individual stories like that make for more engaging news stories, but they can also make for some rotten risk assessments. This is nothing new of course - the demonisation of ecstasy following the death of Leah Betts had a similar dynamic, and you naturally feel compassion for the families in those terrible situations, which can make it seem pretty cold to start talking about stats.

 

[8ball]

Blood clots - if it turns out they are caused by the vaccine - is a pretty central effect.

I think the definitions are well understood. Some of the drugs in my cabinet list side effects that are quite severe (warfarin is among them).

I’d sooner list them as “risks”, though (with some context; we’ve talked about how probability can be tricky to deal with intuitively). Gels with how we already talk about other interventions like surgeries.

 

[8ball]

Not sure they perceived themselves to have much choice!

Dunno. There was obviously the threat of penalties but with with a massive impact on their liberties they could have been a lot less compliant. Anecdotal, but I see a lot more of young people policing each other than breaking rules, even casually. It seems like older folk have been more blase.
I hope I’d have behaved as well at their age.

 

[Petcha]

I'm on Pfizer, next jab in a couple of weeks. Should I count myself lucky?

 

[8ball]

I'm on Pfizer, next jab in a couple of weeks. Should I count myself lucky?

How did you react to the Pfizer jab? Plenty of people had little more than a sore arm with the AZ one.

 

[kabbes]

I think the definitions are well understood. Some of the drugs in my cabinet list side effects that are quite severe (warfarin is among them).

I’d sooner list them as “risks”, though (with some context, we’ve talked about how probability can be tricky to deal with intuitively). Gels with how we already talk about other interventions like surgeries.

For the record, I agree with Sheila that "side-effects" is an unhelpful form of discourse related to the taking of drugs. "Off-target effects" is a better, if less snappy, phrase. "Side-effects" makes it sound like the thing you want the drug to do is the main thing it does, and that all other effects are some kind of... I don't know, unfortunate surprise or something. In reality, you are actually putting some active chemicals into a complex biochemical system, which unsurprisingly produces all kinds of results, just one of which is the thing you are hoping for.

The reason it matters is because it is part of the general medicalisation of society, in which "medicines" are generally represented as positive, modern, helpful things. Not that they are necessary not positive, modern, helpful things. But it is this kind of common-sense formation within the popular discourse that encourages the uncritical distribution of, for example, antibiotics and opiates. Because medicine.

 

[Petcha]

How did you react to the Pfizer jab? Plenty of people had little more than a sore arm with the AZ one.

I've been fine, not even a sore arm. I had tuberculosis a couple of years ago, and am operating on one and a half lungs so I guess that why I got promoted in the pecking order (I'm not that old).

I was genuinely impressed at the whole process. Text message, choose your date, go in - no real queue, and out. I've got mates in Spain who don't actually believe me!

 

[8ball]

For the record, I agree with Sheila that "side-effects" is an unhelpful form of discourse related to the taking of drugs. "Off-target effects" is a better, if less snappy, phrase. "Side-effects" makes it sound like the thing you want the drug to do is the main thing it does, and that all other effects are some kind of... I don't know, unfortunate surprise or something. In reality, you are actually putting some active chemicals into a complex biochemical system, which unsurprisingly produces all kinds of results, just one of which is the thing you are hoping for.

The reason it matters is because it is part of the general medicalisation of society, in which "medicines" are generally represented as positive, modern, helpful things. Not that they are necessary not positive, modern, helpful things. But it is this kind of common-sense formation within the popular discourse that encourages the uncritical distribution of, for example, antibiotics and opiates. Because medicine.

If the thing you want the drug to do isn’t the main thing it actually does (in terms of probability of happening and impact on the patient’s quality of life), then it either shouldn’t pass the licensing process or is unsuitable for the indicated condition.

That all medical interventions come with risks (some of them directly as part of the “main effect” of the drug, such as with anti-coagulants), is probably understated, but I think that is a matter of the issues in your final paragraph rather than one of etymology.

 

[Petcha]

Whoever is actually running the programme, I know Zahawi is taking the plaudits but let's face it, he's just a figurehead - deserves a fucking whole lot of credit. I wish they had been in charge of the initial response to the whole thing.