Portillo - 'Thatcher cared about the working man'

[Pickman's model]

I don't see what you're trying to argue with me about. I haven't denied most of what you're saying (even if you have an eccentric way of saying it). But the fact remains that Thatcher did speak to a section of the working class who aspired to what they considered something better than the traditional working class way of life and didn't particularly care what political direction it came from or the negative impact it might have on others.

And the fact that the left is still going on about Thatcher as if she was some kind of fascist dictator instead of just another PM of limited talents and intellect, and planning childish 'Thatcher's Dead' parties etc implies a large degree of obsession.

i don't remember thatcher inviting callaghan to downing street, nor major, blair or brown. yet every subsequent prime minister has made an effort to associate themselves with margaret thatcher. everyone, even you, is someone of limited talents and abilities, so saying it to belittle thatcher's unparalleled influence on the politics of this country over the past 35 years makes you look rather stupid. of course she wasn't a fascist dictator, and i don't think anyone on this thread - or any others - has really said she was. she did, however, represent a strand of authoritarian conservatism which marked a fairly decisive break with the previous 40 years of government. it's not just the left which recalls margaret thatcher - i'm sure you've seen the recent pictures of her in the papers for her 86th birthday and from liam fox's 50th birthday party.

 

[LLETSA]

i don't remember thatcher inviting callaghan to downing street, nor major, blair or brown. yet every subsequent prime minister has made an effort to associate themselves with margaret thatcher. everyone, even you, is someone of limited talents and abilities, so saying it to belittle thatcher's unparalleled influence on the politics of this country over the past 35 years makes you look rather stupid. of course she wasn't a fascist dictator, and i don't think anyone on this thread - or any others - has really said she was. she did, however, represent a strand of authoritarian conservatism which marked a fairly decisive break with the previous 40 years of government. it's not just the left which recalls margaret thatcher - i'm sure you've seen the recent pictures of her in the papers for her 86th birthday and from liam fox's 50th birthday party.

That strand of authotritarian conservatism, in unleashing the forces of the market, created a society which is far more liberal (and far more unequal) than the one Thatcher inherited. And it doesn't matter that other PMs like to associate themselves with Thatcher when you consider that what she stood for would have happened anyway even if she'd never become PM. Neo-liberalism swept the world and the world is now trying, and failing, to pick up the pieces from the damage it's done.

A section of the right is bound to revere Thatcher as she symbolises their victory. The left is still in awe of her because she symbolises their defeat.

 

[DotCommunist]

A new workers movement will arise from the ashes. As soon as I've had my tea.

 

[Pickman's model]

That strand of authotritarian conservatism, in unleashing the forces of the market, created a society which is far more liberal (and far more unequal) than the one Thatcher inherited.

law of unintended consequences.

And it doesn't matter that other PMs like to associate themselves with Thatcher when you consider that what she stood for would have happened anyway even if she'd never become PM.

because obviously you know what would have happened if callaghan had won in '79, carter had got a second term and the ussr had not been trounced in afghanistan

 

[LLETSA]

law of unintended consequences. because obviously you know what would have happened if callaghan had won in '79, carter had got a second term and the ussr had not been trounced in afghanistan

As I said, neo-liberalism swept the world and was embraced by nominally centre-left and centre-right governments and eventually even the Communists. That wasn't because Thatcher got elected in '79, nor because the USSR got bogged down in Afghanistan. Callaghan and Healey had already started implementing neo-liberal policies before '79, and some of those who would become advisers to Gorbachev were keen on market 'solutions ' even before Gorbachev became president.

It might have been unintentional that Thatcher's authoritarian conservatism resulted in a more liberal society, but that's because she and her cronies failed to understand how unleashing the market tends to destroy tradition.

 

[Poo Flakes]

And the fact that the left is still going on about Thatcher as if she was some kind of fascist dictator instead of just another PM of limited talents and intellect, and planning childish 'Thatcher's Dead' parties etc indicates a large degree of obsession.

Your point seems to be that Thatcher's reign was started three decades ago and times have changed, so the left should move on, which is a fair point.

My point, though, is that a few pissed-off socialists having 'Thatcher's Dead' parties is not just much more trivial, but also more logical in their own ideological frame of reference, than the right-wing obsession with state-funerals and Thatcher's rhetoric. The latter seems to be much more an idée fixe.

For me, "dancing (as publicly as possible) on Thatcher's grave" has got nothing to do with Thatcher, and more to do with Delingpole, the Spectator and countless Tory and Labour MPs. I do not like http://www.isthatcherdeadyet.co.uk/ because it is mocking a Prime Minister, I like it because it seems to successfully irritates the right-wing who truly have an obsession with Thatcher. If the right (see Blair, Cameron, Brown) did not bang on about Thatcher, do you think that anyone would give a solitary fuck when she eventually dies?

 

[DotCommunist]

You'll be receiving the LLETSA mantra of 'it doesn't matter, nothing affects the real situation, we are all largely fucked long term and there is nothing you can do to change that'.

there is no hope in LLETSA's analysis. A bigger left wing fatalist I have yet to find.

Which ignores the fact that as excuses for a party go, the passing of thatch is as good as any.

 

[purenarcotic]

When she finally cops it I will be buying a nice bottle of something sparkly to celebrate with and playing my Thatcher memorium CD courtesy of Chumbawamba at full volume. And also possibly 'ding dong the wicked witch is dead' ( http://www.chumba.com/thatchep.php)

 

[LLETSA]

You'll be receiving the LLETSA mantra of 'it doesn't matter, nothing affects the real situation, we are all largely fucked long term and there is nothing you can do to change that'.

there is no hope in LLETSA's analysis. A bigger left wing fatalist I have yet to find.

Which ignores the fact that as excuses for a party go, the passing of thatch is as good as any.

It isn't anything as grand as an analysis, it's just an opinion.

And what's so good about optimism? All it means is that you're almost always certain to end up disappointed.

 

[LLETSA]

Your point seems to be that Thatcher's reign was started three decades ago and times have changed, so the left should move on, which is a fair point.

My point, though, is that a few pissed-off socialists having 'Thatcher's Dead' parties is not just much more trivial, but also more logical in their own ideological frame of reference, than the right-wing obsession with state-funerals and Thatcher's rhetoric. The latter seems to be much more an idée fixe.

For me, "dancing (as publicly as possible) on Thatcher's grave" has got nothing to do with Thatcher, and more to do with Delingpole, the Spectator and countless Tory and Labour MPs. I do not like http://www.isthatcherdeadyet.co.uk/ because it is mocking a Prime Minister, I like it because it seems to successfully irritates the right-wing who truly have an obsession with Thatcher. If the right (see Blair, Cameron, Brown) did not bang on about Thatcher, do you think that anyone would give a solitary fuck when she eventually dies?

So everybody irritates everybody else. And?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

 

[Pickman's model]

 

[Poo Flakes]

So everybody irritates everybody else. And?

Yeah, why.... can't we all just... like... get along. There's too much hate in the world maaaan.

 

[LiamO]

Yeah, why.... can't we all just... like... get along. There's too much hate in the world maaaan.

That sounds suspiciously like an accusation of optimism. Lletsa will be offended.

 

[LiamO]

And what's so good about optimism? All it means is that you're almost always certain to end up disappointed.

No. That's pessimism.

Optimism is a resourceful state. Pessimism is learned helplessness - basically what you often (rightly IMO) accuse the left of.

Are you a pessimist Lletsa, or would you say you are a full-on nihilist

 

[LLETSA]

Yeah, why.... can't we all just... like... get along. There's too much hate in the world maaaan.

I relish annoying those I don't like just as much as anybody else, but it isn't really politics. It's symptomatic of the internet age, which allows everybody to let off steam safely without ever really affecting anything in the real world. Look at any newspaper columnist's blog the world over: right-wing anoraks trying to piss off left wing anoraks, left-liberal anoraks trying to annoy radical left anoraks etc etc.

 

[LLETSA]

No. That's pessimism.

Optimism is a resourceful state. Pessimism is learned helplessness - basically what you often (rightly IMO) accuse the left of.

Are you a pessimist Lletsa, or would you say you are a full-on nihilist

Optimism has its place, but in politics especially it's insane when you consider that history is full of grand projects that failed dismally at massive cost to life and resources and which, with hindsight, were bound to fail: the French revolution, the Russian revolution, the Chinese revolution, fascism, the quest for a world of free-market democracies etc etc. I don't agree that to acknowledge this is learned helplessness, but can see why people reject such a viewpoint. We live in a culture where anything other than optimism is regarded almost as insanity when it should probably be the other way round.

I've become steadily more pessimistic politically over the years, but still believe that change for the better is possible. I just don't think it's all that likely in the foreseeable future for obvious reasons. Wouldn't say that's nihilism, more realism. People seem to mean different things depending on what context they're using the term nihilism in anyway.

 

[frogwoman]

Optimism has its place, but in politics especially it's insane when you consider that history is full of grand projects that failed dismally at massive cost to life and resources and which, with hindsight, were bound to fail: the French revolution, the Russian revolution, the Chinese revolution, fascism, the quest for a world of free-market democracies etc etc. I don't agree that to acknowledge this is learned helplessness, but can see why people reject such a viewpoint. We live in a culture where anything other than optimism is regarded almost as insanity when it should probably be the other way round.

I've become steadily more pessimistic politically over the years, but still believe that change for the better is possible. I just don't think it's all that likely in the foreseeable future for obvious reasons. Wouldn't say that's nihilism, more realism. People seem to mean different things depending on what context they're using the term nihilism in anyway.

That's interesting - when and under what circumstances would you think that something positive could be possible? Like a hundred years or so from now?

 

[LLETSA]

That's interesting - when and under what circumstances would you think that something positive could be possible? Like a hundred years or so from now?

I have no idea. But the fact is that the radical left, in any of its formulations (including 'the working class') has no chance of achieving power except maybe temporarily as currently happening in some parts of in Latin America. And what's coming-the meltdown of the world economy, climate change, a crisis in natural resources (possibly leading to war) etc etc-while promising chaos and upheaval, seem under these circumstances unlikely to lead to positive change.

 

[Fruitloop]

But then set against that you have the potential for various game-changing events like a serious take-off in artificial intelligence, a major breakthrough in medical science, an increase in the ability to use resources from outside the planet, nanotech, a game-changer in energy availability etc.

 

[LLETSA]

But then set against that you have the potential for various game-changing events like a serious take-off in artificial intelligence, a major breakthrough in medical science, an increase in the ability to use resources from outside the planet, nanotech, a game-changer in energy availability etc.

While a major breakthrough in medical science may be welcome, it doesn't imply positive political change, while all the rest of what you mention has as much potential to destroy us as to benefit us.

I'm just hoping that CERN doesn't suck us all down a fucking black hole just when City are looking good.

 

[Poo Flakes]

I relish annoying those I don't like just as much as anybody else, but it isn't really politics. It's symptomatic of the internet age, which allows everybody to let off steam safely without ever really affecting anything in the real world. Look at any newspaper columnist's blog the world over: right-wing anoraks trying to piss off left wing anoraks, left-liberal anoraks trying to annoy radical left anoraks etc etc.

I am not sure I could support any movement which does not, in some way, undermine the prospect of a mawkish state-subsidised funeral for Margaret Thatcher.

 

[sihhi]

Does anyone have access to this?

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article3733996.ece?CMP=OTH-gnws-standard-2013_04_08

I'm intrigued by what his memories were.

 

[KeeperofDragons]

As absurd a statement as it is, Portillo is not wrong - Thatcher was closer to the working man than this mob of Etonians and political-class hangers on are. Whether she cared about the working man is clearly another matter however, though I would still say what little she did care is still more than Cameron.

She was a grocer's daughter that makes her petit bourgouis - same contempt for the working man as the rich but not the dosh to back it up

 

[KeeperofDragons]

In all seriousness, she probably was closer to a certain type of working man than the likes of Cameron (and arguably the Millipedes) are.

The sort of working man who has aspirations to 'better himself', wouldn't dream of joining a union, and is quite happy to piss on his colleagues in order to get that first level supervisor sort of job, but knows his place and doesn't get ideas too far above his station...

A working class tory - too green to burn (RF Delderfield in To Serve Them All My Days)

 

[treelover]

Portillo is back on the hard right, he wants claimants to have to go to parish relief, etc...