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Plane crashes onto A27 at Shoreham Air Show

Have we had any lunatic conspiracy theories yet?

I looked up the Ramstein disaster yesterday and there were some idiots claiming alien activity.
 
What's the difference between "time limited" and "cycle limited" then, DownwardDog ?
Think about cars. Some stuff will fail after a period of time (e.g. rust, rubber perishing, etc) and some will fail with usage and distance (e.g. brake pads wearing out).

In aviation, distance isn't a valuable metric as if you take a passenger flight from A to B then although the distance may be large, the aircraft spends most of that time under low stress. Stress is encountered when doing things like going to full engine power for takeoff, when landing, or pulling manoeuvres. Think about flexing a bit of stiff metal back and forth and eventually it'll snap - well that's one example of fatigue. That's why it's more valuable to measure these occurrences which is what constitutes a cycle. The engineers estimate how many cycles something will be safe for.
 
I'm sure he was doing all he could, and the fact the plane belly flopped onto the road just before it impacted *suggests* that he was trying desperately to get the nose up. He is ex RAF and flies commercial airliners, so I'm pretty sure he was well capable.
The point of no return would have been very early on, probably near the start of the loop. Past that, there was nothing to be done, good intentions or not. It's just physics, and if you don't have enough energy or enough height to sacrifice in order to open some more choices, it's going where it's going like throwing a rock. All you could do is stay put and hope your trajectory is kind to you.
 
Lastly, also all this talk about it being militaristic is just political projection; people like military jet displays because they're fast, loud, apparently dangerous, physics-defying spectacles, like motorsport on speed. For most it has little to do with history or a particular affection for the military.
 
The point of no return would have been very early on, probably near the start of the loop. Past that, there was nothing to be done, good intentions or not. It's just physics, and if you don't have enough energy or enough height to sacrifice in order to open some more choices, it's going where it's going like throwing a rock. All you could do is stay put and hope your trajectory is kind to you.
I'm slightly upset that the pilot didn't steer 20 metres to the left and land in the field. I am aware this is unreasonable, but it was extremely close to it.
 
I'm slightly upset that the pilot didn't steer 20 metres to the left and land in the field. I am aware this is unreasonable, but it was extremely close to it.
Find something resembling a flight simulator with half decent physics - hell, even Grand Theft Auto's probably good enough these days - and try a loop for yourself. You might as well ask why a train driver didn't swerve; only a few yards would have done it.
 
Air Shows:

7 dead in Slovakia 3 days ago: http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/08/20/us-slovakia-crash-idUSKCN0QP0ZY20150820

Another seven dead (at least) at Shoreham yesterday.

And still more today in Switzerland: http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/08/23/us-swiss-airplane-crash-idUSKCN0QS0DQ20150823

That's a minimum of 15 dead in three days for nothing. Ban this bread and circuses farce immediately.

Its a sad list of unintentional deaths.. but there are responses other than the outright banning of an interest that some find attractive. Reaching for the ban on the basis that some are killed in accidents is a bit of an over reaction. Cars kill and maim many more people day in and day out, but few would regard a ban on cars as an appropriate response.

No question that decent regulation on where aviation shows operate is required though. There seems to be a laissez faire approach at the moment.
 
No question that decent regulation on where aviation shows operate is required though. There seems to be a laissez faire approach at the moment.
It's really not - but almost all airfields are surrounded by roads, if not residential areas or worse. The regulations have adapted to where they are, successfully, to prevent huge casualties from aircraft crashing into the crowds, but you can't avoid all associated risk. As others point out, the chances of crashing onto the A27 and not the largely empty South Downs were, by the geographic nature of it, very, very small, so you don't get much better than that without either cancelling it or having it barely visible to the audience.

However someone will have to decide if even this small chance represents a fair balance of risk/reward to carry forward.
 
No question that decent regulation on where aviation shows operate is required though. There seems to be a laissez faire approach at the moment.

They could and should make things safer by simply stipulating no ex-mil types on the civil reg. That stupid fucking Vulcan business is a massive accident waiting to happen and should be stopped immediately.
 
It's really not - but almost all airfields are surrounded by roads, if not residential areas or worse. The regulations have adapted to where they are, successfully, to prevent huge casualties from aircraft crashing into the crowds, but you can't avoid all associated risk. As others point out, the chances of crashing onto the A27 and not the largely empty South Downs were, by the geographic nature of it, very, very small, so you don't get much better than that without either cancelling it or having it barely visible to the audience.

However someone will have to decide if even this small chance represents a fair balance of risk/reward to carry forward.

i don't accept this. Air displays can take place away from airfields and roads, over the sea where risk to the public is absolutely minimal. Its not rocket science.

Legislation can deal with it easily.
 
It's really not - but almost all airfields are surrounded by roads, if not residential areas or worse. The regulations have adapted to where they are, successfully, to prevent huge casualties from aircraft crashing into the crowds, but you can't avoid all associated risk. As others point out, the chances of crashing onto the A27 and not the largely empty South Downs were, by the geographic nature of it, very, very small, so you don't get much better than that without either cancelling it or having it barely visible to the audience.

However someone will have to decide if even this small chance represents a fair balance of risk/reward to carry forward.

It's not a simple question of whether this air show should have taken place at all. You talk about the large empty South Downs - then why was a maneuever such as this planned so that if it went wrong, it would end up on the A27?
 
They could and should make things safer by simply stipulating no ex-mil types on the civil reg. That stupid fucking Vulcan business is a massive accident waiting to happen and should be stopped immediately.
XH558 is a ridiculous folly but at least it is/was backed up by proper technical authorities. They're pulling their support and it will come to an end as a result.
 
It's not a simple question of whether this air show should have taken place at all. You talk about the large empty South Downs - then why was a maneuever such as this planned so that if it went wrong, it would end up on the A27?
Noone ever "planned" for it to end up on the A27. I imagine it was supposed to come out of the loop and do a low pass over the airfield for display purposes, the lowest point being over the airfield. There is therefore a risk to a wide area, firstly the entire radius of the flight plan, but still a large area even if focusing on the bottom of the loop. You could now argue, with the benefit of hindsight, that the risk to traffic from this plan was unacceptably high. You could do the same, however, regarding the presence of any airfield perimeter road, and such accidents have happened, including on British motorways.
 
XH558 is a ridiculous folly but at least it is/was backed up by proper technical authorities. They're pulling their support and it will come to an end as a result.

It should never have been allowed in the first place. You've got the cast of The Last of the Summer Wine maintaining and operating a 55 year old nuclear bomber. A massively complex platform that the RAF struggled with in an era when the RAF was actually good at that sort of thing.
 
That stupid fucking Vulcan business is a massive accident waiting to happen and should be stopped immediately.

Apparently the Vulcan did a flyby at 1000ft as a mark of respect yesterday. We were out for the day at West Wittering & it was flying around near us followed by a Spitfire, the noise from it was incredible!
 
i don't accept this. Air displays can take place away from airfields and roads, over the sea where risk to the public is absolutely minimal. Its not rocket science.

Legislation can deal with it easily.
Nope. Bournemouth Airshow largely takes place over the sea, but a Red Arrows aircraft still crashed on approach to the airport, which under only slightly different circumstances could have been the same. They still have to operate these vintage hunks of junk from somewhere, and you can't escape the fact that if it's high in the sky, it can still fall on a lot of places. You can't make it safe, you can only make it safer or kill it entirely. And if you kill it, on a risk calculation, you'll be left to muse over what will be next.

It should never have been allowed in the first place. You've got the cast of The Last of the Summer Wine maintaining and operating a 55 year old nuclear bomber. A massively complex platform that the RAF struggled with in an era when the RAF was actually good at that sort of thing.
I agree to a certain extent, and I think the civil risk balanced against its purely entertainment-based reward creates a very dubious proposition, but it was at least professionally supported (legally warranted?) by Marshalls and I think BAES, RR, etcetera. It's not entirely frivolous. I don't know what the state of affairs with Hunters and so on is.
 
The point of no return would have been very early on, probably near the start of the loop. Past that, there was nothing to be done, good intentions or not.
Actually, the point of no return is at some point past the top of loop. Rolling out at that point converts a loop into a half Cuban Eight, from which there is plenty of height to recover.

I'm slightly upset that the pilot didn't steer 20 metres to the left and land in the field. I am aware this is unreasonable, but it was extremely close to it.
He may have had no control. The stall speed (the speed below which the wings have no lift) increases with the square root of wing loading. At the bottom of the loop, he may have been aware he was too close to the ground, and pulled hard. Pulling hard increased wing loading. Increasing wing loading increased stall speed. If his stall speed increased above his airspeed, he wouldn't be able to steer.

Then again, it might have been control failure (electrical, mechanical, or hydraulic). Or engine failure. Or a bird strike. Or he might have blacked out at high 'G' force. Speculation is at best uninformed at this point.
 
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i don't accept this. Air displays can take place away from airfields and roads, over the sea where risk to the public is absolutely minimal. Its not rocket science.

Legislation can deal with it easily.

Even at Eastbourne where the display should be over the sea and visible to all the idiots still insist on flying over the town. The Typhoon in particular does this causing massive noise disturbance that shakes the ground terrifying kids and animals.

Eastbourne too had a fatal crash a few years back with the pilot and plane crashing into the sea, neither were ever found.

Is this really what people want?:
 
Actually, the point of no return is at some point past the top of loop. Rolling out at that point converts a loop into a half Cuban Eight, from which there is plenty of height to recover.


He may have had no control. The stall speed (the speed below which the wings have no lift) increases with the square root of wing loading. At the bottom of the loop, he may have been aware he was too close to the ground, and pulled hard. Pulling hard increased wing loading. Increasing wing loading increased stall speed. If his stall speed increased above his airspeed, he wouldn't be able to steer.

Then again, it might have been control failure. Or engine failure. Or a bird strike. Or he might have blacked out at high 'G' force. Speculation is at best uninformed at this point.
True, if you do realise that you need to abort. Otherwise, if you do persist, the outcome is baked in from early on.
 
i don't accept this. Air displays can take place away from airfields and roads, over the sea where risk to the public is absolutely minimal. Its not rocket science.

Legislation can deal with it easily.
But our air displays are over the sea and a red arrow crashed on the way back to the air field. I still think it's too risky. I'd rather see our air show go back to the airport than have planes pissing around over a busy seaside town which is what happens here.

Actually I'd rather it didn't happen at all but it's not up to me.

ETA-I see I should have read to the end as these points have already been made. [emoji1]
 
I'm slightly upset that the pilot didn't steer 20 metres to the left and land in the field. I am aware this is unreasonable, but it was extremely close to it.
I did wonder if he was trying to land it on the westbound section of the A27 after the lights. if they were red, which from the pictures it looks like they were, the road would of been quite empty, maybe some cars coming from the airport. If that was the case unfortunately it didn't work.
 
Even at Eastbourne where the display should be over the sea and visible to all the idiots still insist on flying over the town. The Typhoon in particular does this causing massive noise disturbance that shakes the ground terrifying kids and animals.

Eastbourne too had a fatal crash a few years back with the pilot and plane crashing into the sea, neither were ever found.

Is this really what people want?:


In a future redcogs world the public desire to spend time watching military aircraft performing ludicrous dances in the sky will have withered away, replaced by other far more interesting and less polluting and less dangerous activities - folk music festivals and morris dancing probably..

That utube exerpt is terrifying, confirming my feelings about all things military.

Take the toys from the boys.
 
In a future redcogs world the public desire to spend time watching military aircraft performing ludicrous dances in the sky will have withered away, replaced by other far more interesting and less polluting and less dangerous activities - folk music festivals and morris dancing probably..

Urrrgh, fucking hippies...

When's the next airshow? I haven't been to one for years but all this sanctimonious anti-militarism makes me want to attend just to spite the beardy types...
 
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