People who worry about long-term effects of the vaccines

[dshl]

I feel that in the media with this subject there is a bit of a black-out in that it's not brought up often if at all.

Personally speaking I'm vacinnated but when I come across someone who says they won't get the jab because we don't know what the long-term effects are, I'm ok with that. It seems to me this is a valid position. Even discouraging people on this basis seems reasonable to me.

Do people agree with this or is there no reasonable position here? If so, why?

Btw, I'm not claiming they're right, but more I'm asking if it's reasonable to hold a different opinion on this in your view.

 

[NoXion]

I'm far more worried about the long-term effects of Covid, which is a known phenomenon, than I am about the potential long-term effects of any vaccine.

 

[Supine]

It’s a valid concern but a lot is known about vaccines which have been used for decades safely.

It is not ok to believe Dave from Facebook over the opinion of experts.

 

[LDC]

I feel that in the media with this subject there is a bit of a black-out in that it's not brought up often if at all.

Personally speaking I'm vacinnated but when I come across someone who says they won't get the jab because we don't know what the long-term effects are, I'm ok with that. It seems to me this is a valid position. Even discouraging people on this basis seems reasonable to me.

Do people agree with this or is there no reasonable position here? If so, why?

Btw, I'm not claiming they're right, but more I'm asking if it's reasonable to hold a different opinion on this in your view.

It's understandable, but it's not justified by any proof or previous issues with vaccines, or when balanced out against the risk of getting covid.

What other long term effects of other vaccines are people pointing to? Or is it the mRNA technology they're worried about?

I think it's a position that comes from a mix of a lack of understanding of the process of testing and approval of medicines, fear of the unknown and not understood, some mistrust of authority, and maybe for some people a poor/disempowering experience with the health system.

 

[hitmouse]

What NoXion said, pretty much. I think it's reasonable to be worried that we don't know what the long-term effects of the vaccine might be; but we know for a fact that covid can lead to long-term negative effects, so I don't see what the calculation is that makes something that may or may not have any long-term effects more dangerous than something which definitely has some long-term effects, and may yet turn out to have others that we don't know about.
I suppose you could say that the ideal would be to neither get the vaccine or get covid, but I think the last year or so has shown why "just count on never getting infected" isn't a great plan, so I think it's on those who are against the vaccine to explain either why they're fine with potentially getting covid, or else what their plan to make sure they never get infected is.

 

[LDC]

What NoXion said, pretty much. I think it's reasonable to be worried that we don't know what the long-term effects of the vaccine might be; but we know for a fact that covid can lead to long-term negative effects, so I don't see what the calculation is that makes something that may or may not have any long-term effects more dangerous than something which definitely has some long-term effects, and may yet turn out to have others that we don't know about.
I suppose you could say that the ideal would be to neither get the vaccine or get covid, but I think the last year or so has shown why "just count on never getting infected" isn't a great plan, so I think it's on those who are against the vaccine to explain either why they're fine with potentially getting covid, or else what their plan to make sure they never get infected is.

The thing that's pissing me off, especially among the vaccine hesitant/refusers/avoiders I know, is just how fucking selfish and individualist the choice to not have the vaccine is. It's not suprising given the fixation on personal health and alternative 'medicine' among some people on the left, and how individualized society is, but it's always framed as this avoidance of some vague possible future problems for them, not much thought given to the fact that having the vaccine is quite possibly a life saver for vulnerable people they come into contact with now.

 

[spudulike]

It's not suprising given the fixation on personal health and alternative 'medicine' among some people on the left, and how individualized society is,

That made me laugh. The only anti vaxxer I know is a Tory homeopath.

 

[LDC]

I fucking hate homeopaths the money grabbing charlatans. "Yes, that's right, bang it on that leather and horsehair thing, that increases its effectiveness in curing you."

I mean what the fuck happened to their brains?

 

[elbows]

Its a reasonable position that can be arrived at in an unreasonable way, or taken in an unreasonable direction.

Its one of the very few areas which I decided not to speculate on in this pandemic. I also decided not to seek out proper medical research that may indicate some of the specific questions on this front. In part because I already gave myself a hard time when weighing up the balance of immediate, obvious risk from the disease with various unknowns, it took some time to settle that for myself personally. And also becasuse the timescales for understanding more about this stuff may be rather long, and I dont wish to repeat the sort of lengthy background anxieties I had with things like variant CJD 'ticking timebomb' BSE fears of decades past. And at this stage even the best research is going to result in mostly questions, not answers.

I did find myself in recent days accidentally reading a news summary of a research paper that got specific in this direction when it came to some mRNA vaccine unknowns in terms of immune changes and potential implications when it comes to our bodies fighting certain other diseases in future. I did not enoy reading about the questions it raised, putting some specifics to the sense of future unknown, so I dont really want to seek it out again and start going on about it here in detail. I also have no idea quite how I stumbled on it, where I read it or how easy it will be to find again even if I wanted to. Maybe it wasnt even a news summary of the research, it could have been a summary from the institution itself. I know it wasnt pseudo-scientific shit, it was actual clinical or lab stuff.

 

[kalidarkone]

I'm a frontline NHS worker and although I agreed to have the vaccine and was fully vaccinated by February......I certainly wondered and still do about long term side effects. However because covid was so much more easily transmitted.....I really felt in the face of a pandemic and there being relatively little knowledge or experience of the virus that it was the best option, for me, my family, my patients and my colleagues.

Also in hindsight has been important for my mental health...to feel protected.

Also.......there are many long term side effects from other medications...however as often is the case...the prevention/reduction of illness/symptoms often outweighs long term effects.

 

[l'Otters]

I’ve known two people who had trained and given treatments in something totally unscientific, one was a homeopath and one did some plant spirit medicine thing. Both of them believed in what they were offering 100%. They invested a stack of money in the training and held themselves to high standards within that framework. I did find them both to be decent empathetic people on a friendship level (wouldn’t have gone to either of them for treatment).
Point I’m making is they did believe their own bullshit & didn’t perceive what they were doing as charlatanry on any conscious level.

 

[elbows]

I'm a frontline NHS worker and although I agreed to have the vaccine and was fully vaccinated by February......I certainly wondered and still do about long term side effects. However because covid was so much more easily transmitted.....I really felt in the face of a pandemic and there being relatively little knowledge or experience of the virus that it was the best option, for me, my family, my patients and my colleagues.

Yes I'd say it is rather rational to make decisions based on the risks we do know about in quite some detail, ie this virus and its burden on society now, rather than ones that wont reveal themselves for an unknown length of time, if at all.

 

[l'Otters]

That’s a very good point about side effects kalidarkone; even paracetamol damages the liver & ibuprofen can cause ulcers.

 

[elbows]

Yeah, although one of my beefs with modern medinine and healthcare, and hopes for improvement in future, is on that front. I'm not a giant fan of the tendency to downplay the known risks and side effects of drugs in a way that results in oversimplified solutions such as prescribing the patient ever more drugs to deal with side-effects caused by the first drugs.

Actually making a notable improvement to that is not easy though. It would be easy for me to wank on about 'the holistic approach' or complain about the aspects of capitalism and drug company profits that amplify some of this shit, but going on about this in vague terms doesnt solve the issues. I do get a bit emotional sometimes when I read personal accounts such as one on the BBC news website a while back that I cant find now, about a woman who had terrible pain etc because of a condition affecting tissue strength, where she ended up prescribed with the strongest opioids regime by last teenage years and with no quality of life, but later found a different way to cope and have a quality of life via medical cannabis. We could do so much better on this front and others. Far too often people are encouraged to settle for unsatisfactory condition management for reasons that are arbitrary and shit.

 

[LDC]

I’ve known two people who had trained and given treatments in something totally unscientific, one was a homeopath and one did some plant spirit medicine thing. Both of them believed in what they were offering 100%. They invested a stack of money in the training and held themselves to high standards within that framework. I did find them both to be decent empathetic people on a friendship level (wouldn’t have gone to either of them for treatment).
Point I’m making is they did believe their own bullshit & didn’t perceive what they were doing as charlatanry on any conscious level.

"...held themselves to high standards" is one of my issues; lack of independent oversight and regulation.

 

[dshl]

It’s a valid concern but a lot is known about vaccines which have been used for decades safely.

It is not ok to believe Dave from Facebook over the opinion of experts.

And if they say: '... but it hasn't been approved.'

 

[Supine]

And if they say: '... but hasn't been approved.'

You say ‘yes it has, you stupid fucker’

 

[andysays]

It's understandable, but it's not justified by any proof or previous issues with vaccines, or when balanced out against the risk of getting covid.

What other long term effects of other vaccines are people pointing to? Or is it the mRNA technology they're worried about?

I think it's a position that comes from a mix of a lack of understanding of the process of testing and approval of medicines, fear of the unknown and not understood, some mistrust of authority, and maybe for some people a poor/disempowering experience with the health system.

I think this is the crucial point.

Although these anti-Covid vaccines were (understandably) rushed through without any study of the long term effects which it might have been nice to have, the basic technology for them is the same or similar to existing vaccines for other illnesses, isn't it?

So presumably there are long-term studies on similar vaccines which have been used over a longer period - have any of them demonstrated any specific issues or genuine causes for concern or apprehension?

 

[kalidarkone]

That’s a very good point about side effects kalidarkone; even paracetamol damages the liver & ibuprofen can cause ulcers.

Ongoing use of Omeprazole has been shown to raise the risk of dementia. For example.

 

[dshl]

You say ‘yes it has, you stupid fucker’

Think they mean FDA, etc. along those lines. Saying it comes under 'emergency use' 'experimental'. These are some of the things I hear but personally don't know much about.

I just accept the long term-effects argument as being pos. relevant, not the other stuff (approval, etc), as know nothing about it.

 

[NoXion]

The way I see it, a vaccine, even one that has only been been recently created, has at least been designed by human beings for the specific purpose of preventing illness in other humans.

But the coronavirus isn't like that at all. The only thing it really "wants" is to multiply. The virus doesn't give a shit if it sickens you, and it certainly doesn't care about permanently affecting your health. It will blindly rip through both your body and the wider population while having no concept whatsoever of such niceties as restraint or collateral damage.

I think a lot of this is down to the fetishisation of the "natural" as being something that's inherently a good thing. Some people seem to confuse the pleasant feelings they get from wandering around the countryside, with some eternal truth. Bollocks. The venom from the inland taipan snake is entirely natural, but that doesn't make it any less deadly.

 

[dshl]

It’s a valid concern but a lot is known about vaccines which have been used for decades safely.

It is not ok to believe Dave from Facebook over the opinion of experts.

In the alternative Media you will get those with some credentials not advocating the vaccine. For instance the biologist Bret Weinstein who is on the the popular podcast Joe Rogan. He will say that it's 'brand new' and by taking the vaccine, in terms of long-term effects, you should realise you are 'taking your chances' and are 'just hoping for the best'.

That's how the scenario is portrayed. Not that you're taking a safe vaccine.

 

[dshl]

The way I see it, a vaccine, even one that has only been been recently created, has at least been designed by human beings for the specific purpose of preventing illness in other humans.

But the coronavirus isn't like that at all. The only thing it really "wants" is to multiply. The virus doesn't give a shit if it sickens you, and it certainly doesn't care about permanently affecting your health. It will blindly rip through both your body and the wider population while having no concept whatsoever of such niceties as restraint or collateral damage.

I think a lot of this is down to the fetishisation of the "natural" as being something that's inherently a good thing. Some people seem to confuse the pleasant feelings they get from wandering around the countryside, with some eternal truth. Bollocks. The venom from the inland taipan snake is entirely natural, but that doesn't make it any less deadly.

How 'natural' is covid though in this case?

 

[NoXion]

How 'natural' is covid though in this case?

They've examined the genome of the virus. If it had been subject to any kind of modification or artificial selection, then that would tell.

 

[IC3D]

They've examined the genome of the virus. If it had been subject to any kind of modification or artificial selection, then that would tell.

What is artificial selection?. A lab could speed up and mimick natural selection for desired characteristics quite easily.

 

[NoXion]

What is artificial selection?. A lab could speed up and mimick natural selection for desired characteristics quite easily.

No, they couldn't. You can selectively breed dogs to have more wolf-like characteristics, but that won't fool anyone who can look at the genetics. Natural selection doesn't happen fast.

 

[IC3D]

We see varients of covid crossing, I don't see how anyone could know whether that happened accidentally in a hospital ward or a lab with the same number of infected people deliberately. Hypothetically for an example.

 

[Dystopiary]

This Brett Weinstein is saying Ivermectin is the way to go regarding Covid 19. Hmmmmmmmm.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Surely if people won't vaccinate then it is only their lives being placed at risk here?

 

[NoXion]

We see varients of covid crossing, I don't see how anyone could know whether that happened accidentally in a hospital ward or a lab with the same number of infected people deliberately. Hypothetically for an example.

Because even the biggest biolab in the world is not going to have access to enough human test subjects to accurately mimic how a virus develops in the wild. Viruses come in and out of hospital wards all the time, they're nowhere near as closed off from the rest of the world.