Dystopiary
putting up a hook to hang my hopes upon
No, it helps to protect the whole population.
People who worry about long-term effects of the vaccines
- Thread starter dshl
- Start date
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
No, it cuts transmission risk significantly, so vaccinating reduces risk to those you're in contact with. Plus more people in hospital bad for other people etc.
platinumsage
HaveMyPassword123
Not necessarily, but that hasn’t stopped people claiming that it has:
Both American experts explained that COVID-19 has the genome sequencing CGC-CGG or ‘ double CGG’ which is one of the 36 sequencing patterns. CGC is rarely used in the class of coronaviruses that can recombine with CoV-2 which is a “damning fact.”. Quay wrote, “The insertion sequence of choice is the double CGG.” they further said, “That’s because it is readily available and convenient, and scientists have a great deal of experience inserting it...An additional advantage of the double CGG sequence compared with the other 35 possible choices: It creates a useful beacon that permits the scientists to track the insertion in the laboratory.”
'Never been found naturally': Rare genome indicates COVID-19 is man-made, say US experts
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
Really not arging in favour of anti-vaxxers here, but even if they are more Covidy than vaccinated people, so long as you are vaccinated it doesn't matter if someone comes along who's riddled with it, no?
Supine
Newt Member
From a personal perspective you will be safe. People who can’t have the vaccine rely on others to keep transmissions down. That’s why it is selfish not to if you can.
Bit of a touchy subject with me at the moment as my anti vaccine sister has now resulted in an anti vaccine niece and brother in law.
elbows
Well-Known Member
As far as I know it might be reasonable to say that mRNA vaccines and drugs have been experimented with for some decades, but until this pandemic no mRNA drugs or vaccines had been licensed for use in humans.
If its inaccurate to say that then I hope someone points out and provides some details.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
It might or might not, being vaccinated is not 100% protective, and also what about vulnerable people who are more at risk vaccinated or not.
It annoys me when people assume the vulnerable are just the frail over 80s in a nursing home or something. Plenty of seemingly young and healthy looking people that are stood next to someone refusing to wear a mask or have the vaccine in the supermarket queue could be very vulnerable. (Not aimed at you or anyone here either, but there is that assumption among plenty of people.)
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
Who can't have the vaccine? I know pregnant people, but that's just cos some will get vaccinated not knowing they're pregnant and 'they' are waiting on the data from these people to see the effects of that, obviously morally wrong to test shit on people who know they are pregnant. But who else? If everyone except the anti-vax loons are jabbed up then surely it is only the anti-vax loons who are significant risk. And I do get the vaccine is not 100% but the virus will be out there regardless forever now, so as with flu and such, the people who are jabbed up and will still get seriously ill/die from it are fucked anyway, no?
platinumsage
HaveMyPassword123
There are plenty of RNA drugs, although not mRNA ones - mostly siRNAs and aptamers. It’s all just RNA really, it’s the intended target that differs. It’s not like it’s some whole new thing being injected into people.
And is AZ even more familiar being that its not an MRNA vaccine or is it different enough to be significantly risky re. long-term effects?
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Pregnant women can be vaccinated. There are a small minority of people that have been told they can't get the vaccine currently due to medical conditions, although for many that advice will change as more data comes in and time passes.
But no, vulnerable people especially are at risk from non-vaccinated individuals, and we're all at risk if not a high enough percentage of the population gets vaccinated (which is unlikely to happen given the high % take-up).
Clair De Lune
Apocalypse cocktails
I've met a few people through my work (Inc two children 
) and know a few people socially who are suffering serious and long term side effects from covid. It's tricky as I doubt any of them could prove 100% that covid was the cause of these life altering after effects...so how in the hell could we prove that the vaccine has caused any?
It makes it difficult to talk about as some will be in the 'I'm sure and don't need proof' and some will be in the 'you have no proof therefore are talking shit' camp.
I guess in my line of work I don't need proof to try to help someone deal with what they are going through and I take a similar approach in life. Someone's truth and suffering is real to them whatever the facts are. I do get cross when people insist on spreading scare stories and rumours though as it's never balanced. some people genuinely get off on being doomsayers it seems.
I also get annoyed by lack of compassion for anyone struggling, no matter how wonky their thinking though. And I do see some of you raising your blood pressure and stress levels and adrenaline daily by seeking out people to be angry at and hate though.
so 
) and know a few people socially who are suffering serious and long term side effects from covid. It's tricky as I doubt any of them could prove 100% that covid was the cause of these life altering after effects...so how in the hell could we prove that the vaccine has caused any?It makes it difficult to talk about as some will be in the 'I'm sure and don't need proof' and some will be in the 'you have no proof therefore are talking shit' camp.
I guess in my line of work I don't need proof to try to help someone deal with what they are going through and I take a similar approach in life. Someone's truth and suffering is real to them whatever the facts are. I do get cross when people insist on spreading scare stories and rumours though as it's never balanced. some people genuinely get off on being doomsayers it seems.
I also get annoyed by lack of compassion for anyone struggling, no matter how wonky their thinking though. And I do see some of you raising your blood pressure and stress levels and adrenaline daily by seeking out people to be angry at and hate though.
so 
MickiQ
In My Defence I was left Unsupervised
I don't know anyone who has ever said they can't be vaccinated for CoVID or anything else (I know the odd U75'er has claimed this but I can't verify any such statement) So what percentage of the population geniunely can't be vaccinated for medical reasons? Is it 1%, 0.1%, 0.01%?
The only vaxxer refusenik I have personally encountered is Mrs Q's aunt who didn't want it on the grounds that it would prove her faith wasn't strong enough
, her opinion changed when God didn't keep his side of the bargain and she got it anyway.Being in her early 70's it made her very ill and massively put the wind up her and she has since been vaccinated.
NoXion
Craicy the Squirrel
I've met a few people through my work (Inc two children
100% proof is unnecessary (and outside of mathematics, impossible). Rather the "balance of probabilities" is how such things should be judged. There's more than enough evidence of long Covid, so we needn't rely merely on the word of patients to establish its existence.
spudulike
Well-Known Member
I believe anyone on immunosuppressants? They don't get a response to the vaccine so won't be protected. Something like that.
Also, the more virus is circulating (whether or not causing serious illness) it stands a much better chance of mutating into something that is more transmissible and deadly. That's why getting the UK fully protected just won't do, so you hear people banging on about "we're not protected until we're all protected".
girasol
Addicted to handstands!
But you'd have to take those for a long time before you get damage. A vaccine is only one (or, in this case, two doses). I think with vaccines you're more likely to get adverse reactions within a short period of time of receiving them? The way I see it is, are there long term side effects from the flu vaccine? Polio? or any other vaccines that are regularly given? I don't think there are... That's just my reasoning, not an expert.
l'Otters
.
If enough anti vax were infected they could between them generate a new variant which could evade vaccine induced immunity. The more virus there is in circulation the higher the chances of a mutation which undoes all the protection built up via exposure & vaccines.
l'Otters
.
Missed this somehow! Sorta duplicated your second point.
Riklet
procrastinación
That long term effect "death" from Covid-19 is pretty darn hard to treat. As is the long covid I am still suffering from as a very healthy active 31 year old...
What they will probably demonstrate is that the vaccine immune system reaction is throwing some people's bodies off a bit - hence the days of illness, period issues, old recurring aches and pains and stuff coming back, allergies triggered bla bla bla. And probably for months, not just days too. But this idea that in 5 years people will drop dead cos they had an mRNA vaccine etc... pretty laughable.
What they will probably demonstrate is that the vaccine immune system reaction is throwing some people's bodies off a bit - hence the days of illness, period issues, old recurring aches and pains and stuff coming back, allergies triggered bla bla bla. And probably for months, not just days too. But this idea that in 5 years people will drop dead cos they had an mRNA vaccine etc... pretty laughable.
Last edited:
scalyboy
They’re taking the piss now
100% right.
Myself and a friend of mine were classified 'extremely vulnerable' to Covid-19, but you wouldn't necessarily know by looking at us (we're in our 40s and 50s, fairly healthy appearance on the outside).
And kalidarkone made a good point upthread, that having the vaccine has helped with their mental health. I've certainly experienced this myself; going to supermarkets or corner shops was a proper nerve-wracking experience prior to being jabbed, and I'd try to get in and out as fast as possible. And travelling on public transport put the fear into me, especially with people not wearing masks in every carriage / on every deck.
scalyboy
They’re taking the piss now
Yes. Fairly sure that many of the current anti-vaxxer crew will have had the MMR or other vaccines at some point in their childhood. Have they experienced serious ill-effects ?
It's not as if this is the first ever vaccine, but the way they carry on you'd think it was a wholly untested experiment.
Having said that, I do think there's a definite difference between someone who's concerned about the long-term effects of the Covid vaccine(s), and someone who believes it will implant microchips in their system, or alter their DNA... the former person has IMHO a reasonable if unwarranted fear, the latter person is a loon and most probably can't be reasoned with.
I was talking to a vaccine-hesitant person who said she was worried that it would make her daughter infertile. I said, I can't guarantee you that won't happen because I'm not a medical specialist, but these vaccines have been tested and trialled, and in any case, all medicines have some potential side-effects. That doesn't mean we should stop taking them all.
Last edited:
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
It's also worth bearing in mind a significant amount of the hardcore conspiracy people are cloaking their beliefs in medical concern for the possible long term negative impact of the vaccine, rather than talking about the 5G/Gates/microchip stuff, so not as simple as taking what people say at face value re: vaccine concerns.
Depends which kind. I'm on immunosppressants and was vaccinated in line with the current advice. In fact, I was classed as clinically vulnerable so was done earlyish.
Again, depends on the vaccine. I can't get live vaccines like yellow fever, for example.
I was talking to a friend last night. His SIL is refusing the vaccine. He's tried to find out why so he can maybe allay some of her concerns (he's a medical journalist so is v clued up on it all) but she won't engage at all or even explain what she's worried about.
elbows
Well-Known Member
If that sort of analysis is used to lump people like me in with the drooling conspiracy nuts then there is going to be trouble.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
What?! Jesus christ, that wasn't what I was suggesting at all. What you think about this topic wasn't in my mind at all, calm your ego down.
And threatening 'trouble' - what are you on about?
elbows
Well-Known Member
Trouble as in my shouting my mouth off, having a go at you.
If you dont understand why what you said was problematic then I will explain.
One of the features of this world that I do not like involves crude associations between different phenomenon being made. Especially when it comes to closing down and attempting to delegitimise certain angles. That has been a feature of some aspect of this pandemic, and so I am sensitive to it. Pointing it out and rejecting it rather loudly is one of the things I do during events such as this pandemic. Sometimes in a rude and over the top way, because thats sadly part of how I am, and I'm not proud that I cannot exercise a better degree of restraint in that regard.
I find it especially frustrating when the fact-free shit peddled by conspiracy theorists is linked to legitimate questions. Especially given that in the vast majority of cases, the conspiracy idiots are completely incapable of that sort of disguise. I will not try to claim that nobody at all in their movements are capable of being clever enough to use a cloak of apparent legitimate questioning in order to promote their extreme, bullshit agenda without raising suspicions. But relatively few manage to pull this off because their masks slip all the time, they cannot resist quacking on about all the bullshit aspects of their theories which quickly reveal where they are really oming from.
If you dont understand why what you said was problematic then I will explain.
One of the features of this world that I do not like involves crude associations between different phenomenon being made. Especially when it comes to closing down and attempting to delegitimise certain angles. That has been a feature of some aspect of this pandemic, and so I am sensitive to it. Pointing it out and rejecting it rather loudly is one of the things I do during events such as this pandemic. Sometimes in a rude and over the top way, because thats sadly part of how I am, and I'm not proud that I cannot exercise a better degree of restraint in that regard.
I find it especially frustrating when the fact-free shit peddled by conspiracy theorists is linked to legitimate questions. Especially given that in the vast majority of cases, the conspiracy idiots are completely incapable of that sort of disguise. I will not try to claim that nobody at all in their movements are capable of being clever enough to use a cloak of apparent legitimate questioning in order to promote their extreme, bullshit agenda without raising suspicions. But relatively few manage to pull this off because their masks slip all the time, they cannot resist quacking on about all the bullshit aspects of their theories which quickly reveal where they are really oming from.
elbows
Well-Known Member
What I should probably have done rather than just going off at you was to ask you to provide one or more examples of people "cloaking their beliefs in medical concern for the possible long term negative impact of the vaccine".
I would like to see eamples because maybe I am wrong and this is a more widespread phenomenon than I have suggested. Or maybe I am imagining that you were talking about a cloak that is of a far higher standard than is actually the case, in which case I can also appreciate why you didnt know why I reacted so angrily. Because if its the most feeble of cloaks and they dont do a good job of hiding their agenda behind well crafted, legitimate concerns, but rather just hiding behind a crap and unconvincing imitation of such concerns, then I have much less problem with what you were saying. Because if their cloaks are shit and relatively transparent then there is less danger that the people who are conspiracy theorists and know-nothing idiots will be conflated with people who are actually just pondering very sensible questions about various unknowns or theoretical risks.
edit - oops mangled a few words there, corrected.
I would like to see eamples because maybe I am wrong and this is a more widespread phenomenon than I have suggested. Or maybe I am imagining that you were talking about a cloak that is of a far higher standard than is actually the case, in which case I can also appreciate why you didnt know why I reacted so angrily. Because if its the most feeble of cloaks and they dont do a good job of hiding their agenda behind well crafted, legitimate concerns, but rather just hiding behind a crap and unconvincing imitation of such concerns, then I have much less problem with what you were saying. Because if their cloaks are shit and relatively transparent then there is less danger that the people who are conspiracy theorists and know-nothing idiots will be conflated with people who are actually just pondering very sensible questions about various unknowns or theoretical risks.
edit - oops mangled a few words there, corrected.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
It's a strategy that some of them recommend and that I have come across while reading some of their output, and have also come across when engaged in conversation about it with some of them.
It was a short post making that point, not one delegitimising genuine concerns and questions on that topic. Taking it as more than that it a bit much tbh, I won't respond again as don't want to derail the thread or continue this really, but feel free to go ahead and shout your internet mouth off and have a go at me if you want, just seems a bit odd, but whatever.
It was a short post making that point, not one delegitimising genuine concerns and questions on that topic. Taking it as more than that it a bit much tbh, I won't respond again as don't want to derail the thread or continue this really, but feel free to go ahead and shout your internet mouth off and have a go at me if you want, just seems a bit odd, but whatever.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Were they any good at it? Can we create a simple guide to spot the difference between their shit and the sensible ways that people should feel free to talk about such matters?
When I get angry with people in a way that seems over the top, its because I am mostly angry about some of the underlying mechanisms for how this stuff works, its polluting effect. I have an enormous amount of residual anger about all manner of failings in this pandemic, and some of the phenomenon that underpin them. In this pandemic that includes the way various experts dismissed various things in overly confident ways, and my feelings about that probably leak out into other areas.
Conflations make me angry. But most of my anger is towards the conspiracy theorists and anti-vax shit peddling quacks themselves, not you. Its just that anger grows even stronger when their shit also threatens to make even more complicated the task of determining and talking sensibly about legitimate concerns. Heck even the word legitimate probably had a sour ring to it given the way some shithead conspiracy dicks have likely woven 'just asking legitimate questions' into their crap cloaks. Hopefully it is clear from what I'm saying that I do not therefore actually reject the underlying point you were making, I just thought it was made in a somewhat lopsided way that involved lumping too many things together, sorry about that.
When I get angry with people in a way that seems over the top, its because I am mostly angry about some of the underlying mechanisms for how this stuff works, its polluting effect. I have an enormous amount of residual anger about all manner of failings in this pandemic, and some of the phenomenon that underpin them. In this pandemic that includes the way various experts dismissed various things in overly confident ways, and my feelings about that probably leak out into other areas.
Conflations make me angry. But most of my anger is towards the conspiracy theorists and anti-vax shit peddling quacks themselves, not you. Its just that anger grows even stronger when their shit also threatens to make even more complicated the task of determining and talking sensibly about legitimate concerns. Heck even the word legitimate probably had a sour ring to it given the way some shithead conspiracy dicks have likely woven 'just asking legitimate questions' into their crap cloaks. Hopefully it is clear from what I'm saying that I do not therefore actually reject the underlying point you were making, I just thought it was made in a somewhat lopsided way that involved lumping too many things together, sorry about that.
Similar threads
