Michael Buerk "Let fat people die to save the NHS money "

[spanglechick]

I’m not seeing the problem in his comments. The headlines “leave fat people to die” suggest he’s advocating withdrawal of healthcare from we fat folk.

But that isn’t what he’s saying at all. He’s saying “leave fat people alone to do what they want. If they carry on being fat they’ll die early and that’s good for the economy and nhs”.

Which is more or less my own take on the recent contentious obesity adverts.

 

[T & P]

Most drinkers drink sensibly (70% of drinkers consume less than the government guidelines). Genuine social smokers are as rare as hen's teeth. Smoking is so bad for your health that smoking poor quality black market tobacco is unlikely to be any worse for your health.

I know plenty of them myself. A minority of the smoking population but not as rare as you think. I have also known plenty of 20-a-day-people who stay in good overall health until at least pensionable age. Smoking is nowhere near a street hard drug like meth or crack where you could expect near a 100% rate of severe health problems or death among any very long term users.

I suspect booze is closer than you think to smoking in terms of percentage of users suffering severe health problems or early deaths. If one adds the considerable social problems and violence that are alcohol associated, there might be far better grounds to ban booze first for those who believe in such policies, which I certainly don’t.

But I think the point cupid_stunt was making is that banning drugs doesn’t work and most people determined to smoke would be able to as easily as the millions of regular pot and class-A users in this country. But worst of all is that as well if losing billions of tax revenue for the country, you would introduce innumerable new criminal gangs and an organised crime industry based around smuggling and dealing in cigarettes. Just like every other banned substance known to man.

It would be a catastrophic idea imo.

 

[maomao]

I know plenty of them myself. A minority of the smoking population but not as rare as you think. I have also known plenty of 20-a-day-people who stay in good overall health until at least pensionable age. Smoking is nowhere near a street hard drug like meth or crack where you could expect near a 100% rate of severe health problems or death among any very long term users.

I suspect booze is closer than you think to smoking in terms of percentage of users suffering severe health problems or early deaths. If one adds the considerable social problems and violence that are alcohol associated, there might be far better grounds to ban booze first for those who believe in such policies, which I certainly don’t.

But I think the point cupid_stunt was making is that banning drugs doesn’t work and most people determined to smoke would be able to as easily as the millions of regular pot and class-A users in this country. But worst of all is that as well if losing billions of tax revenue for the country, you would introduce innumerable new criminal gangs and an organised crime industry based around smuggling and dealing in cigarettes. Just like every other banned substance known to man.

It would be a catastrophic idea imo.

I'd legalise all the other drugs (except cocaine in any form). Everyone would be having too much fun to bother with a shit drug like tobacco. And even if some did at least I could probably sit down for a sarnie outside at lunch time without some inconsiderate cunt lighting up yards from my face while I'm eating.

 

[likesfish]

Even coke and smack would be less harmful legal

 

[maomao]

I'd settle for a Bhutanese style ban on all public smoking to be honest. It's ridiculous allowing it in parks and public spaces. I'd support legalisation of cannabis but I wouldn't extend that to allowing smoking spliffs in kids' playgrounds.

 

[Ming]

Too much bread and not enough circuses. Throw them to the lions.

 

[krtek a houby]

Little by little, all our vices will be taken. Perhaps more money should be invested in the NHS than confiscating cigs and packets of crisps.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

Even coke and smack would be less harmful legal

Maybe. I used to think that until meph came along.

 

[Rivendelboy]

I’m not seeing the problem in his comments. The headlines “leave fat people to die” suggest he’s advocating withdrawal of healthcare from we fat folk.

But that isn’t what he’s saying at all. He’s saying “leave fat people alone to do what they want. If they carry on being fat they’ll die early and that’s good for the economy and nhs”.

Which is more or less my own take on the recent contentious obesity adverts.

How is it good for the economy?

 

[spanglechick]

How is it good for the economy?

Die young = less/no state pension paid, less drain on nhs and social care services.

The growth in life expectancy is very bad for the economy. 45 years of working out of a 70 year life is a different proposition to 45 years out of a 90 year span.

 

[Rivendelboy]

Die young = less/no state pension paid, less drain on nhs and social care services.

The growth in life expectancy is very bad for the economy. 45 years of working out of a 70 year life is a different proposition to 45 years out of a 90 year span.

So what we want is people to die early, fat or otherwise, if we want to live in Michael's sad world

 

[spanglechick]

So what we want is people to die early, fat or otherwise, if we want to live in Michael's sad world

No. Just that if they do, it’s not a terrible thing.

I speak as someone morbidly obese. Like most intelligent adults who are chancing early death, I should probably be left to get on with it.

 

[maomao]

No. Just that if they do, it’s not a terrible thing.

I speak as someone morbidly obese. Like most intelligent adults who are chancing early death, I should probably be left to get on with it.

Which is fair enough. But the morbidly obese people I know (I work with several) aren't costing the NHS money with life saving operations (the only one I know who's on the list for a stomach stapling is constantly being put back because he can't lose the four or five stone he needs to to have the op) it's diabetes medicine, mobility costs and quality of life care for now.

 

[spanglechick]

Which is fair enough. But the morbidly obese people I know (I work with several) aren't costing the NHS money with life saving operations (the only one I know who's on the list for a stomach stapling is constantly being put back because he can't lose the four or five stone he needs to to have the op) it's diabetes medicine, mobility costs and quality of life care for now.

Well yeah. It’s the dying early end of the equation that’s clearer economically.

I have mobility problems. It costs the nhs/state the subsidy on a box of cocodamol every so often. (Full disclosure, I also have a chronic neuro condition which I take a lot of meds for, but that’s not caused by weight). Eventually I’ll need knee replacements (my mum has just had her second, aged 75). On the other hand, osteoporosis is significantly less common in overweight people, so maybe I’ll save the nhs money on hip replacements...

At any rate, you’re right. Fat people may need healthcare before they die. Or they might keel over with a massive heart attack and save thousands in geriatric care. I think if we have a free at the point of access system, we probably need to let people live their lives as they choose if it doesn’t hurt anyone else.

 

[krink]

I could murder a chip butty right now

 

[mystic pyjamas]

I could murder a chip butty right now

Along with a deep fat fried Mars bar.

 

[ViolentPanda]

What’s next? Long term illness, the disabled.
Fascist wanker.

He probably has shares in a rail freight company - closed wagons, of course.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

The thing is obesity doesn't occur in a vacuum. Its partly environmental. I've known a number of Americans who have moved overseas who were fat when they left. When they came back, they'd lost substantial amounts of weight. After being back a while the weight crept back on. If you want people to be thinner, you have to design the environment to be healthier.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

The growth in life expectancy is very bad for the economy. 45 years of working out of a 70 year life is a different proposition to 45 years out of a 90 year span.

People will probably remain in the workforce longer. Also, I'm not certain that people only work 45 years as it is now. I'm 56 and I've been in the workforce in some form or another since I was 14. That's 42 years. I expect to be in the workforce another decade or more. My workplace has people still working into their mid-80s. I'm not planning on doing that if I can avoid it.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

People will probably remain in the workforce longer. Also, I'm not certain that people only work 45 years as it is now. I'm 56 and I've been in the workforce in some form or another since I was 14. That's 42 years. I expect to be in the workforce another decade or more. My workplace has people still working into their mid-80s. I'm not planning on doing that if I can avoid it.

My retirement plan is to be sufficiently fit and healthy to fight bandits and iguanas and raid post-flood London for food. I should probably practice hand-to-hand combat and free-diving now really. I would like to be one of those inspirational figures in YA dystopian novels, who admittedly tend to get killed off as motivation for the protagonist, but that's a reasonable way to go.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

My retirement plan is to be sufficiently fit and healthy to fight bandits and iguanas and raid post-flood London for food. I should probably practice hand-to-hand combat and free-diving now really. I would like to be one of those inspirational figures in YA dystopian novels, who admittedly tend to get killed off as motivation for the protagonist, but that's a reasonable way to go.

My retirement plan is the 9mm strapped to the underside of my bed.

 

[spring-peeper]

The thing is obesity doesn't occur in a vacuum. Its partly environmental. I've known a number of Americans who have moved overseas who were fat when they left. When they came back, they'd lost substantial amounts of weight. After being back a while the weight crept back on. If you want people to be thinner, you have to design the environment to be healthier.

On the subject of environmental factors, we joke about people who move from our small town to Cornwall, Ontario.

It would seem that those moving gained massive amounts of weight while living in Cornwall. We, us how stay here, blame the weight gain on fast food. We only have 2 fast foods - Tim Horton and Dairy Queen.

I remember struggling to see the thin face I knew, inside the now fat and pudgy face.

Weight drops when they return back home.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

On the subject of environmental factors, we joke about people who move from our small town to Cornwall, Ontario.

It would seem that those moving gained massive amounts of weight while living in Cornwall. We, us how stay here, blame the weight gain on fast food. We only have 2 fast foods - Tim Horton and Dairy Queen.

I remember struggling to see the thin face I knew, inside the now fat and pudgy face.

Weight drops when they return back home.

I gain weight when I'm working and going to school. You might think that spending 60 hrs a week in front of a computer might be bad for your health.

When I go hiking on vacation, I'll usually lose a pound per day.

 

[gentlegreen]

When I go hiking on vacation, I'll usually lose a pound per day.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

If you walk in mountainous terrain for 15 miles per day, wearing a pack, and eating very little, you will lose weight rather quickly. Losing weight isn't difficult. What's hard is keeping it off when your work is sedentary.

 

[spring-peeper]

If you walk in mountainous terrain for 15 miles per day, wearing a pack, and eating very little, you will lose weight rather quickly. Losing weight isn't difficult. What's hard is keeping it off when your work is sedentary.

You must see some lovely views.

 

[ferrelhadley]

My retirement plan is to be sufficiently fit and healthy to fight bandits and iguanas and raid post-flood London for food. I should probably practice hand-to-hand combat and free-diving now really.

Deep

 

[8ball]

If you walk in mountainous terrain for 15 miles per day, wearing a pack, and eating very little, you will lose weight rather quickly. Losing weight isn't difficult. What's hard is keeping it off when your work is sedentary.

That’s a *holiday*?

 

[Rivendelboy]

If you walk in mountainous terrain for 15 miles per day, wearing a pack, and eating very little, you will lose weight rather quickly. Losing weight isn't difficult. What's hard is keeping it off when your work is sedentary.

Better would be for people to learn, and thus politicians, promote proper healthy eating without either pandering to big business, fat shaming, or ill informed but well intentioned climate activists (specifically the people who refuse to accept we can farm livestock without killing the environment)

 

[Pickman's model]

Better would be for people to learn, and thus politicians, promote proper healthy eating without either pandering to big business, fat shaming, or ill informed but well intentioned climate activists (specifically the people who refuse to accept we can farm livestock without killing the environment)

you'll like this. https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/scheer-trudeau-canada-food-guide-1.5216957 it's about the canadian conservative party saying they'll tell people it's grand to eat more meat and dairy, things which the current canadian food guide (to what you should eat, not where) doesn't say