London Anarchist bookfair 2020

[Red Sky]

"I am unaware of any instance of this, and you have failed to point to any."

Ah right, you havn't seen it (even tho I've pointed directly at it) so it mustn't exist.

If you don't see anyone arguing in favour over very horrible stuff (in the activist scene in general), you live in a better bubble than mine pal x

"you seem more worried about convicted rapists' rights to their preferred pronoun, rather than women's right to discuss"

That is utter disengenous tosh. You can't possible be so niave as to believe that transphobes handing out leaflets saying "look at these sexual predators who just happen to be trans" doesn't develop the idea that trans women = rapists. We had this shit with "look at these gays who are peadophiles...now I'm not saying all gays are peodos, heck my mates gay, but do you really want a gay teaching your little boy?", that kind of symantics "not transphobia just concerns" are nothing but smoke screewns for bigotry.

I'm done with your merry go round, I think we understand each other quite well.



re; Two days.
Those are some really valid points and I'll bring them to the crew next we meet Right now it was a VERY loose idea which would mean London locals would have a second day of networking and skill sharing while everyone was in town, however it does mean a significant leap in many peoples expenses for some and make others feel like they have missed out so yeah, will discuss!


How did you find Urban 75
I've seen the forum here and there but never made an account. In this instance a friend shared the thread with me with an eye roll (about 3/6 pages in) and advised me to just leave it lol. Probably a good piece of advise but to be honest I believe in dealing with conflict head one. My real focus was less on the no transphobia policy which we've spent 10 pages on now and more addressing the early misgiving about who the fuck this new collective were and concerns that we were a buch of wet liberals who were going to make a right tits up of it and invite all manner of trash and pat our middle class backs. I think we got that sorted out tho once we identified me as a Northern bastard (who may or may not look sexy in high vis) haha

Other Bookfairs.
To be honest I thing the regional bookfairs are more important for the "scene", they need much more support than they get and If Bookfair 2020 goes down well we'll be looking to send funds onwards no doubt, especially the new ones like Newcastle and Dundee. I personally hate how it's all eyes on London all the fucking time and we need more "local stuff". Tho London does have a huge population so needs it's own bookfair in my mind, if we were really on it , we'd have a dozen smaller affairs in areas through out the year and every city would have atleast one. Mind you, having one big as a national event one does mean we get to put on a lot of stuff at the same time that otherwise wouldn't happen so I guess there is that (let alon the international stuff that smaller bookfairs wouldn't be able to do) tho in my head I think it'd do better if it toured the capitals? idk just an idle thought right now, probably a million problems with that.


Comrades who I organise with helped put on Manchester, Liverpool, Bristol and Edinburgh bookfairs and we're taking advice and seeking their support. I suspect they'll be actively involved in the 6 month prior to Bookfair 2020.

You said people were "literally sharing it on leaflets".

 

[Rhyddical]

You said people were "literally sharing it on leaflets".

They did, all three leaflets are available with a quick google.

 

[Rhyddical]

Can you specify who you are quoting in bold please?

I really can't lol It keep complaining about multiple qoutes lol I will attach names in future tho.

 

[Rhyddical]

Are all these events going to abide by the same policy re transwomen?

Every single Anarchist / Radical bookfair in the UK has a no transphobia policy as far as I'm aware.

 

[chilango]

Any thoughts on my date request Rhyddical ? I'm surely not the one for whom children make half-term availability problematic?

 

[Red Sky]

They did, all three leaflets are available with a quick google.

That phrase? " All trans women are rapists"?

 

[Athos]

They did, all three leaflets are available with a quick google.

Yes, and nowhere on any if them does it say (or even imply) that all trans women are rapists. Please stop saying things that are demonstrably false.

 

[Pickman's model]

/

 

[Rhyddical]

All rapists are biologically male

Have to say it's been quite some time since I've seen that one.

You going to share the the dictionary definition that says "by a man" now? I mean must be confusing now since most of them have moved on from the patriartchial language (ie that men are the powerful one in all instances etc etc) and changed it to things like " The crime of using force or threat of force to compel a person to submit to some other sexual penetration." but whatever, you do you, I'm tired of repeating the same points. We seem to agree on the nature of transphobia and agree it is bad so I'm happy x


I'm not biting on the leaflet thing, yes it doesn't say "all" well done, you've won the symantics, clearly there is nothing to worry about.

Tommy bobinson doesn't say "all" muslims either, infact he's friends with a muslim fella so he can't possibly be a racist and you can't possibly be this niave.

 

[Pickman's model]

Have to say it's been quite some time since I've seen that one.

You going to share the the dictionary definition that says "by a man" now? I mean must be confusing now since most of them have moved on from the patriartchial language (ie that men are the powerful one in all instances etc etc) and changed it to things like " The crime of using force or threat of force to compel a person to submit to some other sexual penetration." but whatever, you do you, I'm tired of repeating the same points. We seem to agree on the nature of transphobia and agree it is bad so I'm happy x

athos has in mind the legal definition of rape, which requires that the perpetrator necessarily be male

 

[klang]

/

at any book fair worth its salt toilet facilities should be available to anybody needing a slash.

 

[Red Sky]

Have to say it's been quite some time since I've seen that one.

You going to share the the dictionary definition that says "by a man" now? I mean must be confusing now since most of them have moved on from the patriartchial language (ie that men are the powerful one in all instances etc etc) and changed it to things like " The crime of using force or threat of force to compel a person to submit to some other sexual penetration." but whatever, you do you, I'm tired of repeating the same points. We seem to agree on the nature of transphobia and agree it is bad so I'm happy x


I'm not biting on the leaflet thing, yes it doesn't say "all" well done, you've won the symantics, clearly there is nothing to worry about.

Tommy bobinson doesn't say "all" muslims either, infact he's friends with a muslim fella so he can't possibly be a racist and you can't possibly be this niave.

Don't say "literally" if you don't mean it then.

 

[Rhyddical]

athos has in mind the legal definition of rape, which requires that the perpetrator necessarily be male

Ah yes, as an Anarchist I always refer to UK Law ;p

Truly we need to get beyond that daft notion that belongs in yesteryear. It projects women as victims and women are not victims, just like men they declare wars, raise taxes etc etc

 

[Rhyddical]

Don't say "literally" if you don't mean it then.

Alright Stanis. My bad.Literally.

 

[belboid]

Alright Stanis. My bad.Literally.

Stannis

 

[LDC]

Every single Anarchist / Radical bookfair in the UK has a no transphobia policy as far as I'm aware.

You keep saying this like it's some important point. The point is that this definition of transphobia varies wildly among people, with loads of anarchists having positions that according to some are transphobic, which according to some people makes them fascists and not welcome at the Bookfair.

Likewise you keep referring to groups like Women's Place not having a stall, something nobody here has suggested.

I do appreciate your engaging here about the Bookfair, but sometimes your posts are a bit all over the place and it can be hard to get a handle on exactly what you're saying. Maybe that's working both ways as you seem to repeat things that either haven't been said or have been explained not to be the case so maybe some of us aren't being clear either.

 

[Rhyddical]

You keep saying this like it's some important point. The point is that this definition of transphobia varies wildly among people, with loads of anarchists having positions that according to some are transphobic, which according to some people makes them fascists and not welcome at the Bookfair.

Likewise you keep referring to groups like Women's Place not having a stall, something nobody here has suggested.

I do appreciate your engaging here about the Bookfair, but sometimes your posts are a bit all over the place and it can be hard to get a handle on exactly what you're saying. Maybe that's working both ways as you seem to repeat things that either haven't been said or have been explained not to be the case so maybe some of us aren't being clear either.

It is an important point tho (I think...)
We have agreed a definition of Transphobia here. (pretty much right?)

Who exactly are y'all advocating a platform for that is exluded by the no transphobia policy? (also people have advocated for a Womens Place stall/talk previous to my knowledge)
I've stated several times that anarchists with such concerns who respect the space and the other attendees won't be turfed out, thats not the focus here at all or in anyones definition.

If my posts are all over the place, my apologies... I'm a busy bunny and I pop back here inbetween things. Thats my bad not the Bookfairs x

 

[Athos]

Have to say it's been quite some time since I've seen that one.

Ok, don't say 'biologically male', say 'have a penis' instead. The point's the same. And you'll still duck it.

I mean must be confusing now since most of them have moved on from the patriartchial language (ie that men are the powerful one in all instances etc etc) and changed it to things like " The crime of using force or threat of force to compel a person to submit to some other sexual penetration."

Even on your 'definition' the overwhelming majority of rapists would be people with penises; the class of people that some women are concerned about allowing into hitherto single-sex spaces. But, of course, that's of no concern to you.

I'm not biting on the leaflet thing, yes it doesn't say "all" well done, you've won the symantics, clearly there is nothing to worry about.

Wow! Seriously?! The difference between saying "some trans women are rapists" (a fact) and "all trans women are rapists" (a hateful lie) isn't just semantics, you absolute clown. (But I'm glad you've conceded that your outlandish claim about the content of the leaflets was false.)

Tommy bobinson doesn't say "all" muslims either, infact he's friends with a muslim fella so he can't possibly be a racist and you can't possibly be this niave.

To run with your (weak) analogy for a moment. Robinson is a racist who says things like "mass immigration puts pressure on the school system." But, there are plenty of parents who aren't racists but have concerns about the impact on their children's education in being in a school where, for the majority of kids, English is a second language. I know left wing comrades who think that. To crudely lump them all in the same far right pot as SYL is stupid, dangerous, and deeply counter-productive. Not least of all because you silence their solutions, which are very different from SYL's e.g. they'd like sufficient resources thrown at English teaching for all kids, funded in part by immigrants' net contribution to taxes!, and leave the field clear for superficially attractive right wing populist 'solutions.'

I can't help but think that the hysterical tone of some of the debate around this subject (fueled by things like the wildly inaccurate claims you've made on this thread) has actually driven some women who were pro-trans, albeit with some reservations, into the arms of hardcore transhobes!

 

[Athos]

Truly we need to get beyond that daft notion that belongs in yesteryear. It projects women as victims and women are not victims, just like men they declare wars, raise taxes etc etc

The idea that rape (however you define it) isn't overwhelmingly perpetrated by biological males is stupid and misogynistic. And the idea that women need to get over that "daft notion" is incredibly crass.

 

[LDC]

I've stated several times that anarchists with such concerns who respect the space and the other attendees won't be turfed out, thats not the focus here at all or in anyones definition.

I hate to bring this to certain people, but just to be clear... people who have been thrown out of other events are welcome at the Bookfair if they respect the space and other attendees at this event?

 

[LDC]

I can't help but think that the hysterical tone of some of the debate around this subject (fueled by things like the wildly inaccurate claims you've made on this thread) has actually driven some women who were pro-trans, albeit with some reservations, into the arms of hardcore transhobes!

Yes. One of the things I've noticed and is horrible to see is that the way some people (mostly women) have been treated in either wanting to discuss this, or for having different opinions, have ended up with much more extreme positions in this whole thing.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yes. One of the things I've noticed and is horrible to see is that the way some people (mostly women) have been treated in either wanting to discuss this, or for having different opinions, have ended up with much more extreme positions in this whole thing.

not to mention the way that some women have left the boards because of the way they've been treated, including such long-time posters as frogwoman

 

[smokedout]

Yes. One of the things I've noticed and is horrible to see is that the way some people (mostly women) have been treated in either wanting to discuss this, or for having different opinions, have ended up with much more extreme positions in this whole thing.

I think this is a dubious line to take when those with extreme views are working so hard to radicalise those who might just have a few concerns or questions. Whilst I accept that the incident at the last bookfair could have been better handled its not trans people's fault that some anarchists are now spreading daft conspiracy theories and interrupting Pride events in the company of rabid transphobes. Its quite possible to be annoyed by some of the extremities of identity politics, like accusing people of having racist hair, without turning into a massive racist yourself.

 

[LDC]

I think this is a dubious line to take when those with extreme views are working so hard to radicalise those who might just have a few concerns or questions. Whilst I accept that the incident at the last bookfair could have been better handled its not trans people's fault that some anarchists are now spreading daft conspiracy theories and interrupting Pride events in the company of rabid transphobes. Its quite possible to be annoyed by some of the extremities of identity politics, like accusing people of having racist hair, without turning into a massive racist yourself.

It's not an excuse, but it does explain elements of what's been going on, and it's not directly about Helen Steel for example if that's who you're referring to, or even the anarchist scene. I have a friend (nobody connected to the anarchist scene, only vaguely leftie) who works in mental health who in good faith asked at work if transwomen could use women only support groups, who was then reported for transphobia by a colleague.

It got all the way to just before a formal disciplinary hearing after a few months of her being completely upset and worried she was going to lose her job. She left that job soon afterwards, but not surprisingly she's angry and has become much more arsey about the whole issue.

The whole issue is so fucking poisonous I think it's largely gone beyond being able to have a reasonable debate, and as many have said it's partly connected to a wider issue with the way politics has gone the last few years.

 

[Red Sky]

Alright Stanis. My bad.Literally.

Is that a Game of thrones thing?

It's important because it says a lot about how this debate/row has been conducted. It didn't bother you at all to lie about the contents of those leaflets.

 

[Rob Ray]

 

[Red Sky]

Peter Stringfellow's Lord of the Rings

 

[smokedout]

Is that a Game of thrones thing?

It's important because it says a lot about how this debate/row has been conducted. It didn't bother you at all to lie about the contents of those leaflets.

Yeah I think it's important to be accurate about this stuff. And the main problem with that leaflet, and other propaganda being distributed at the same time, was not the lurid snarl about trans rights being rape culture but that it lied about what was being proposed. It presented all the recommendations of the (cross party) Women's and Equality Commitee report as "new Tory laws" that were imminently about to be introduced, despite the fact many of them had already been rejected by the government in response to the Transgender Inquiry. It was this scare mongoring that really led to anti-trans sentiment exploding, and along with it the erroneus belief that Self ID has anything to do with access to womens spaces - which it doesn't, as now confirmed by EHRC, the Government themselves and most recently Karon Monaghan QC, a leading feminist equalities lawyer giving evidence in the recent Equalities Act inquiry.

So it's important to tell the truth because by the time it all gets unravelled it may be too late.

 

[Athos]

... it lied about what was being proposed. It presented all the recommendations of the (cross party) Women's and Equality Commitee report as "new Tory laws"...

It was bought about by Tory minister (and opponent of same sex-marriage) Nicky Morgan MP.

... despite the fact many of them had already been rejected by the government in response to the Transgender Inquiry.

Many of the committee's more controversial proposals hadn't been rejected outright. Rather they were explicitly left up for review in the future i.e. very much up for grabs (and something people are actively lobbying for, now). (I've quoted the relevant sections when you've tried to peddle this falsehood on another thread, for anyone who's interested.)

... the erroneus belief that Self ID has anything to do with access to womens spaces - which it doesn't, as now confirmed by EHRC, the Government themselves and most recently Karon Monaghan QC, a leading feminist equalities lawyer giving evidence in the recent Equalities Act inquiry.

Typically, you've misrepresented the totality Karon's evidence. See para 173 here.

So it's important to tell the truth...

 

[smokedout]

You are ignoring content by this member.

That will be athos creepily and obssesively replying to my posts like he does despite knowing he's been on ignore for a year and he will be insisting that the government is going to do things it has repeatedly said it has no intention of doing and which look even less likely than ever to come to pass and insisting his legal brain outtrumps the wide range of expert opinion that has confirmed self ID will not impact on womens spaces.