Well both kinds probably are but there's obviously quite a cultural/political gulf.
London Anarchist bookfair 2020
- Thread starter Treacle Toes
- Start date
Well both kinds probably are but there's obviously quite a cultural/political gulf.
What differentiates the rights activism of liberals from the rights activism of anarchists? Class struggle? Does that even occur anymore?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
12 years maturing in a whisky barrel
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
I think it's mandatory
Rhyddical
May or may not look sexy in Hi Vis.
Yeah provided they do not unfairly highlight specific religions in a manner that would seem all too familiar to xenophobes. It, like most things is contextual and no I don't have a twelve point list of what is racist and what isn't. haha
Use your noodle innit. Does it look like the kind of thing Farage would hand out? No... you probably ok.
Rhyddical
May or may not look sexy in Hi Vis.
I guess some of the "old Anarchists" might not see it for all the focus on the new aspects of oppression but trust me, young bloods are very very keen on class struggle. From my experiance this is a general thing and extends way beyond Anarchism. I think in party we have Corbyn to thank for it (I know I know) ... Labour really pushed youth consciousness and I speak to fuck tons of young uns making their steps into Anarchism all the time and class struggle in very much a focus points. Mofos still hate tories and want to build a strong and conscious working class.
nyxx
*
Rob Ray
Weight is meaningless
It says a lot about levels of practical involvement with the anarchist movement that you'd not noticed Freedom has an overtly pro-trans position before now tbh. It's not like it's been hidden and we've taken a great deal of crap as a result (moronic comments about Freedom coming over all Idpol being the least of it).
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
It's not a bad book either
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
What do you mean by an overtly pro-trans position, given the fact there's not agreement on things among trans people in the anarchist movement, let alone among trans people more widely?
Rhyddical
May or may not look sexy in Hi Vis.
It is not inward looking to oppose bigotry and oppression, especially when it's is being echoed by comrades.
Look let me give a current and ongoing situation.
Right now, the social media website transphobes and co. have a focus on "Spinster" is being co-ordinated by the guy behind "Gab" the notable right wing social media website. The guy who (yes guy) who runs it has a twitter account full of racist, far right drivel, not only did he build it as a branch of GAB it's app is now going to be hosted on the same App store as a whole bunch of very nazi shit.
Sadly, a great many of the moderate people folk here seem so worried about being cut out of the conversation are on Spinster and us it to spew bile (not saying there isn't more normal content on there... fuck even 8chan can be a good place for gardening tips)
These links are there and and they are being cultivated by overt bigots to draw in moderates and people with well meaning solidarity with their sisters and making them outright hardliners, through constant propoganda and pushing them to have hostile encounters with trans people or cherry picking anecdotes to push them deeper into the fold, this is a stratergy the far right use an now even more so.
This is the reality of the need for a "no transphobia" policy.
It isn't there to cut out comrades but to secure a space that is protective of them and to say as an Anarchistic community we will not play host to bigots.
The very same reason we have "no xenophobia".
If you or your organisation arn't bigots, then you've nothing to worry about.
Meanwhile, the trans inclusive attitudes of feminists, queers and anarchists has had a massive impact on the community, expanding the volume of activists and organisers and I'd argue been very "outwardly" welcoming, helping a vast community get more involved in to what previously had been - let's be honest here - a bit of a macho playground.
The scene is developing and growing, finding new avenues and methods to help others discover and get behind Anarchism and to have their voice in the working class struggle. This is a great thing and in my mind, the very opposite of being inward looking and is infact very open and welcoming - provided you arn't a bigot, the only fracture point comes from abusive and hostile transphobes who have pushed and pushed and eventually been given the overt hostility back, subsequently using that hostility to say "see told you they were all nasty men!" and it'd fucking bullshit, we wouldn't accept it in any other sphere and we wont accept it here.
If a welcoming place for trans people is alienating then all the more reason to get involved and break through that.
The only hostility that occours in these spaces is when transpohobes rock up with leaflets calling trans women rapists and denying their existence n the like. Which I think overwhelmingly is something we all agree is shite.
Hopefully next year they will respect the space, either stay at home or organise a seperate function to express their ideas and everyone, trans and cis can have an epic peaceful bookfair.
edit. Those of you that think there isn't hostility and outright bigotry towards trans women, you might want to read the commentson the Devon Rape Crisis and Sexual Abuse Services twitter as they ask for "self identify women" volunteers. Whether or not you agree with them or trans women working in such spaces, the level of abuse and transphobia here is appalling.
"Just think what an opportunity this is for all the men who get off on fantasising about rape...here they can get women to relive their horrific experiences in person for their masturbatory pleasure."
This shit if from people who think they are "lefties" and knowing a few of the names and accounts think they should have a welcome at the Bookfair. Not one of the "reasonably concerned" is a calling out the overt stuff. They are tolerant of bigotry.
We the fuck aint.
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Athos
Well-Known Member
Rhyddical I said I'd leave it alone, but this is ridiculous!
People don't only need to fear if they are bigots; they're right to fear the possibility of you thinking they're bigots (even if they know they're not).
It's either hopelessly naive or downright disingenuous of you to pretend it's a clear-cut issue.
For example, what would happen to an anarchist woman, who, during the course of a debate about a feminist issue at Bookfair 2020, made a political choice to define her sex by reference to biology (believing that to be the material basis of the oppression of women as a class), in a polite and non-disruptive way, at a point that it's germane to that discussion?
People don't only need to fear if they are bigots; they're right to fear the possibility of you thinking they're bigots (even if they know they're not).
It's either hopelessly naive or downright disingenuous of you to pretend it's a clear-cut issue.
For example, what would happen to an anarchist woman, who, during the course of a debate about a feminist issue at Bookfair 2020, made a political choice to define her sex by reference to biology (believing that to be the material basis of the oppression of women as a class), in a polite and non-disruptive way, at a point that it's germane to that discussion?
TopCat
Putin fanboy
I tried to flick donner meat into one of the huge vats of vegan slop that were always being cooked by (?) in the foyer of Conway Hall. This would have been 1985.
Speeches were made about veganism was a middle class plot to keep the working classes wan and weak.
The issue was a lot of the vegans then were our ALF comrades. We just put up with each other over it in the end.
So lack of an external enemy is a problem?
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
I think it's more the lack of a connection with, and the absence of, wider class struggles.
Rhyddical
May or may not look sexy in Hi Vis.
I think the key bit there is "in a polite and non-disruptive way" and I'd hope that someone would highlight that such opinions are often used to discriminate and forward bigotry and said Anarchist women would accept this and the conversation would focus on how overt bigotry is obfuscated by the language we choose to talk about about things.
I don't think I've said it's "clear cut" anywhere but said that Bookfair 2020 is choosing to have no transphobia as a protective policy.
Given the ALF example I think you'd understand that if said Anarchist women was also stood on side and fighting against bigotry from the "anti trans" lefties or whatever that would go a very long way, unfortunatly I can't think of many examples of this.
IMO there is a huge differance between between the conversation you suggest here and the reality of how transphobes accost trans positive spaces even when there isn't a policy in place that says "please don't".
Athos
Well-Known Member
And if, after that's been explained to her, she acknowledges that some transphobes might use the same language, but that it remains her opinion as an anarchist feminist, and one that's relevant to the discussion (say, single-sex rape shelters)? By the way, she is absolutely sincere, and bears no ill-will to trans people. But, by this stage some trans women in the room are beginning to get angry with her, a few going as far as calling her an "ugly TERF", whereas other trans women are interested in her thoughts. Then what?
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sunnysidedown
caput mortuum
Say no to transphobia, say no to transwomen are women absolutism.
Rhyddical
May or may not look sexy in Hi Vis.
I'm not mystic meg mate.
Tho, the collective has already discussed having folk trained in mediation/arbitration on hand and having seperate spaces for difficult conversations.
We've no interest in policing peoples thoughts or conversations, heck even making sure everyone has a nice time and doesn't have any arguments.
I'd be inclined to trust the steward or whatevers decisions and and deal with the ramifications afterwords.
Let's take your example and move it to one lets contentious (here at least).
There is a talk on veganism and and someone sincerly and politely talks about veganism being just middle class kids and how eating meat is natural, They are informed by animal rights activists that it's part of an unethical industrial practice of brutality etc etc. they say they still think eating meat is great But, by this stage an animal rights activist in the room are beginning to barrack her. Then what?
I'd trust the steward, maybe it's the ARA whose acting out of line and not respecting the space, maybe it's clear the anarchist women is actually actually has a butcher and is only here to cause a ruck... idk... like all things context is key.
Least to say, we are not as IdPol liberal blah blah as you might suggest and to manufacture another imaginary scenario is someone is misgendered accidentally then kicks right off, gets abusive even a steward might say it is them not respecting the space or being intolerant of mistakes and ask them to move on.
Despite how some might want to present it, no one thinks all trans people are always right and it's the trans show and everyone must obey the trans people OR ELSE.
Thats bullshit. Like any community, Trans people are diverse in nature and those who don't respect the space idk by kicking off with hunt sabs for no reason or stealing books will be told to fuck off too.
Athos
Well-Known Member
You haven't really answered the question (rather, you've partially answered a somewhat analogous one). In the circumstances I gave, what would you do if you were facilitating that session in which the anarchist woman calmly and non-confrontationaly expressed her (admittedly controversial) view that trans women aren't women (and explained why, the reason not being any antipathy towards trans people), because it was directly pertinent to the subject under discussion, and that angered some trans people present?
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Rhyddical
May or may not look sexy in Hi Vis.
Ok, so not as Bookfair 2020 policy or to be used as any defined code of conduct but my personal reaction? Say if I was stewarding the workshop or something...... I mean ignoring the 50 million variables that this could be twisted into a HAHA moment in a disengenous debate...
If it's pertinent to the discussion (and for some reason this discussion is in a no transphobia venue) was given in a non distruptive manner with respect to the space and others had responding in due course to highlight the issue with it, I'd ask the imaginary TRA to respect the space and put their issues across within the bracket of the discussion. I'd encourage the workshop to accept the opinion and move on from it rather than waste time circling the same points like it was a U75 thread and carry on to other aspects of the workshop.
I think that is a difficult conversation and those happen, provided there wasn't additional leafleting, waving of "cut the T out of LGBT banners" or a protest, I'd feel it was respectful to the space.
If someone else barraked them, disrespecting the workshop I'd ask them to leave, depending on the situation and whether someone else was there to aid the rest of the workshop I'd go with them and enourage them to talk it through over a cup of tea as given your example it is they who are upset.
I have these conversations with people all the time with people dubious of thew trans equality movement, I'd say 75% of these end up with the revelation of some kind of core issue that may or may not be bigotted(often it is a reactionary attitude that edges on transphobia that is encouraged by outright terfs) If this example was the nature and manner in which this issue was brought up in our shared spaces there wouldn't be a need for a no transphobia policy.
Unfortunatly it isn't.
Right now on twitter is full of utterly vile hostility and disgusting bigotry from men/women who would call themselves Anarchist/Communist.
I'm not sure how we can ask vunerable people to sit down and have a friendly, respectful conversation with people whose starting position is that transwomen are rapists and peadophiles.
You seem keen to focus on the mild mannered of the bunch and I've told you that provided they are resperctful of the space there isn't real issue from us on an organisational level.... at the same time you seem remiss to acknowledge the bulk of the body of transphobes who are up in arms over a no bigotry policy, it is vile, it is nasty, it is utterly unbecoming of comrades and it is nothing more that oppression and hatred.
That is who the no transphobia policy is there for.
Not to pettlefoggle debates or act like the stazi.
People are going to argue and disagree thats life.
Prejudice of the nature that we see each and every time from transphobes tho, won't be tolerated.
I hope thats a bit clearer for you comrade?
Athos
Well-Known Member
Sounds reasonable.
Nobody here is asking them to do that.
Yes, because no anarchist is seriously arguing that anyone who says all "trans women are rapists" is anything but a transphobe, or that they should be given a platform. Or denying that there's loads of ugly transphobia out there.
It is much clearer, thanks. And enormously more nuanced that some of the stuff that's been put out on your social media, to date.
I'd encourage more of this, and less of the stuff that makes it sound like any anarchist who doesn't share your opinion that trans women are women isn't welcome.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
From what I've seen on more than one occasion they'd be denounced as transphobic and a fascist and probably then thrown out.
And Freedom and others say they'd defend it as it's 'the trans position'.
And largely it's actions and attitudes like that are the cause of nearly all the aggro on this issue.
And yes, that abuse you said you've seen from comrades towards trans people is fucked up too, it's just not what I've seen at all.
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Athos
Well-Known Member
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Rob Ray
Weight is meaningless
Don't speak for what "Freedom says" ta, I try not to do that without getting a general idea of the people in the collective actually think first and I'm a member. I can't imagine you have much real idea about these "others" you mention either.
In facth honestly I'd rather you left Freedom out of whatever this thing of is yours is entirely, we're a bookshop and small publisher with a news site and a perspective you happen to disagree with, not the hub of all matters trans and/or idpol. If you're going to have hysterics about the bookfair have them about the bookfair rather than swerving ever further off topic.
In facth honestly I'd rather you left Freedom out of whatever this thing of is yours is entirely, we're a bookshop and small publisher with a news site and a perspective you happen to disagree with, not the hub of all matters trans and/or idpol. If you're going to have hysterics about the bookfair have them about the bookfair rather than swerving ever further off topic.
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