London Anarchist bookfair 2020

[Rhyddical]

From what I've seen on more than one occasion they'd be denounced as transphobic and a fascist and probably then thrown out.

Well like I say several times this form of polite discourse is rare.indeed 100% of the time, in my experiance when people have entered a trans welcoming space to put across the Gender Critical arguments they have been nothing like our fictional discourse here.
It has been overtly on a deeply bigotted position that they insist isn't transphobic.

They are then appalled when someone who has watched their sisters and brothers be abused, beaten or even killed/driven to suicide for years upon years reacts in a hostile manner to them as they spout dogwhistles and politely call for the social undermining of the enter trans community.

I 100% understand why people do react by getting aggy and using words like fascist (albeit no more accurate than calling Farage a "nazi")...

Finally Athos, unfortunatly some "anarchists" or "comrades" are infact seriously arguing that anyone who says all "trans women are rapists" arn't transphobic and should therefore be welcome in our revolutionary spaces. Infact thats the situation right now with the rape crisis centre on twitter and thats the entire issue with what happened in 2017, people were literally sharing that on leaflets and others chose to defend their place and right to share it (and later echo this sentiment and spew various catch phrases and dogwhistles) .... the nuance over "your definition of transphobia" is itself an obfuscation often used by these bigots to blur the issue and try to push the idea that those who are against bigotry are the real bigots/fascists/police etc etc and yeah I'd say thats happened on the thread accidentally and deliberatly.

I hope now we have an understanding of our more Anarchistic, ad hoc and contextually appropriate approach to dealing with bigotry within our spaces both from Bookfair 2020 and me personally...

Is there any other aspect of the UK's largest Anarchist event you'd like to know about?

 

[Red Sky]

The history of trans activists entering GC spaces hasn't exactly been pretty.

 

[Red Sky]

Well like I say several times this form of polite discourse is rare.indeed 100% of the time, in my experiance when people have entered a trans welcoming space to put across the Gender Critical arguments they have been nothing like our fictional discourse here.
It has been overtly on a deeply bigotted position that they insist isn't transphobic.

They are then appalled when someone who has watched their sisters and brothers be abused, beaten or even killed/driven to suicide for years upon years reacts in a hostile manner to them as they spout dogwhistles and politely call for the social undermining of the enter trans community.

I 100% understand why people do react by getting aggy and using words like fascist (albeit no more accurate than calling Farage a "nazi")...

Finally Athos, unfortunatly some "anarchists" or "comrades" are infact seriously arguing that anyone who says all "trans women are rapists" arn't transphobic and should therefore be welcome in our revolutionary spaces. Infact thats the situation right now with the rape crisis centre on twitter and thats the entire issue with what happened in 2017, people were literally sharing that on leaflets and others chose to defend their place and right to share it (and later echo this sentiment and spew various catch phrases and dogwhistles) .... the nuance over "your definition of transphobia" is itself an obfuscation often used by these bigots to blur the issue and try to push the idea that those who are against bigotry are the real bigots/fascists/police etc etc and yeah I'd say thats happened on the thread accidentally and deliberatly.

I hope now we have an understanding of our more Anarchistic, ad hoc and contextually appropriate approach to dealing with bigotry within our spaces both from Bookfair 2020 and me personally...

Is there any other aspect of the UK's largest Anarchist event you'd like to know about?

Where was it said that "All trans women are rapists"?

 

[Athos]

Finally Athos, unfortunatly some "anarchists" or "comrades" are infact seriously arguing that anyone who says all "trans women are rapists" arn't transphobic and should therefore be welcome in our revolutionary spaces.

Which anarchists are arguing that? Who are the people they're saying should be welcome? And where have those people said all "trans women are rapists"?

Because I think you're stretching the truth, with reference to Helen Steel. Her* leaflets didn't call trans women rapists; they likened the erosion of women's freedom to assert their own boundaries to 'rape culture', which is something quite different (and I say that even as someone who's criticised the leaflets' contents).

You undermine your position by repeatedly being so casual with the truth.

ETA: *Should have said the leaflets handed out by women she defended.

 

[Rhyddical]

I could link you a great number of tweets, facebook posts and leaflets that equate trans women with rapists (I even shared one in a previous comment from this twittwer post Twitter. It's what's happening [deleteme]/DevonRapeCrisis/status/1164568521336115200) but I suspect you would negate it by saying it's a one off / cherry picking etc. Sadly it's a very very common theme to transphobes use and if you don't see it you clearly arn't paying attention. Google it, read the appalling shit that is said, including and supported by popular groups.

At London Bookfair 2017 as I recall there were three leaflets.

The one from Mayday for women that equated it to rape culture as you say and it a massiv e dogwhistle for "trans women are rapists" // and you wont be able to name them

The was the "erasure one" some one had printed and left in the toilets and there was the bi fold one that had the pictures and names of various trans women who were in prison and stuff for rape, it misgendered them as men and talkabout about how women were put at risk for trans rights etc etc.

I'm fairly sure helen didnt hand any out, but defended the rights of the women sharing certainly the first one, tho I suspect the others two on the same basis, IDK you'd have to ask her.

I am not being casual with the truth.
There is nothing casual about it.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I thought we'd reached an agreement, on here at least, that we wouldn’t base any argument on the worst behaviours of any side. I realise that you perhaps didn’t get that memo but I’d be surprised if you weren’t in touch with some that did.

 

[Rhyddical]

I am memo less.

anyways it does seem like we have an accord of what a no bigotry policy means both as a banner call and a little more nuance.


So anyways genuine question, thinking if we do have a second day we could base it around workshops, maybe have union training sessions or skillset sharing / legal obs traing, organiser training etc and the like thinking is that a one day bookfair can be a bit packed and these kind of things are often rushed.... what do you all reckon of that kind of thing?

 

[Athos]

I could link you a great number of tweets, facebook posts and leaflets that equate trans women with rapists (I even shared one in a previous comment from this twittwer post Twitter. It's what's happening [deleteme]/DevonRapeCrisis/status/1164568521336115200) but I suspect you would negate it by saying it's a one off / cherry picking etc. Sadly it's a very very common theme to transphobes use and if you don't see it you clearly arn't paying attention. Google it, read the appalling shit that is said, including and supported by popular groups.

At London Bookfair 2017 as I recall there were three leaflets.

The one from Mayday for women that equated it to rape culture as you say and it a massiv e dogwhistle for "trans women are rapists" // and you wont be able to name them

The was the "erasure one" some one had printed and left in the toilets and there was the bi fold one that had the pictures and names of various trans women who were in prison and stuff for rape, it misgendered them as men and talkabout about how women were put at risk for trans rights etc etc.

I'm fairly sure helen didnt hand any out, but defended the rights of the women sharing certainly the first one, tho I suspect the others two on the same basis, IDK you'd have to ask her.

I am not being casual with the truth.
There is nothing casual about it.

I'm sorry, but there's a massive difference between the fact there are some transphobes on Twitter who say that all trans women are rapists, and what you originally claimed i.e.

Finally Athos, unfortunatly some "anarchists" or "comrades" are infact seriously arguing that anyone who says all "trans women are rapists" arn't transphobic and should therefore be welcome in our revolutionary spaces.

I am unaware of any instance of this, and you have failed to point to any.

 

[Athos]

... there was the bi fold one that had the pictures and names of various trans women who were in prison and stuff for rape, it misgendered them as men and talkabout about how women were put at risk for trans rights etc etc.

I don't particularly like the leaflets, but can you see why it's problematic to many women that you seem more worried about convicted rapists' rights to their preferred pronoun, rather than women's right to discuss the indisputable facts that some trans women are rapists and housing them in women's prisons might place other women at risk?

 

[Red Cat]

The actual issue as described in the leaflets doesn't need to be addressed if it's understood as a dog whistle. It's a focus on perceived process rather than content, the content viewed as simply offering various pegs to hang transphobia on. And that's where things get stuck, I think, it's like having a conversation where you think you understand the language, the words seem the same, it all seems familiar, but nothing makes sense.

 

[Pickman's model]

can i suggest this as an alternative leaflet?

 

[Athos]

The actual issue as described in the leaflets doesn't need to be addressed if it's understood as a dog whistle. It's a focus on perceived process rather than content, the content viewed as simply offering various pegs to hang transphobia on. And that's where things get stuck, I think, it's like having a conversation where you think you understand the language, the words seem the same, it all seems familiar, but nothing makes sense.

Of course, the same comments could be used by some to express their sincere and legitimate concerns, and by others as a dog whistle. So we need something less crude than "trans women are women" absolutism to distinguish between them. Maybe a look at someone's broader politics. Because it seems to me that if a 'family values' Tory is saying that that's a good chance he's using it as cover for bigotry (and I can see why you'd want to shut that down), whereas if it's coming from a woman with long history of sound politics, is less likely that she's suddenly become a bigot on this one issue (such that maybe we should listen to her, even if we don't agree).

 

[Red Cat]

I don't really want to get into the specific issue of the leaflets and Helen Steel. I've been to the book fair once, or twice, I'm not an anarchist (or anything else really), I think about going most years but haven't been again, I don't live in London, so it's not my scene.

But it strikes me that conversations happening on different levels aren't going to meet in the middle. I don't know how you unstick that.

 

[LDC]

So anyways genuine question, thinking if we do have a second day we could base it around workshops, maybe have union training sessions or skillset sharing / legal obs traing, organiser training etc and the like thinking is that a one day bookfair can be a bit packed and these kind of things are often rushed.... what do you all reckon of that kind of thing?

I think that might be great. It has been done before a number of times, although usually as a separate event rather than attached to the Bookfair. It strikes me as a massive amount of work though, and would need quite tight regulating to stop it just being a mess of shit workshops all on the more campaigning end of anarchist activism.

Personally I'd be up for a 2 day discussion where we all get locked in a room to try and answer the question 'Is what we're doing any use, if not why not, and what should we do about it?' Boxing gloves optional.

 

[chilango]

I've been to the book fair once, or twice, I'm not an anarchist (or anything else really), I think about going most years but haven't been again, I don't live in London, so it's not my scene.
.

And that is exactly it.

The Bookfair should be the one event that people like you, and me, where we get a chance to connect with the Anarchist movement.

But for those of us outside of London, and/or outside the scene, it can be a big "effort" to attend the Bookfair.

It'll cost me £25 or so to get there. That's not counting beer/book money.

It's a full day out and away from my family.

So you - the organizers Rhyddical - really need to focus outwards at all the sympathetic people out here that could get a lot out of the Bookfair.

Aim your energies at us. Not the latest twitter/Tumblr outrage.

It's a big ask for many of us to come.

On that note...

• Two days just isn't doable.
• Please don't do it on a half-term weekend, that's family time.

Ta.

 

[Treacle Toes]

London's Bookfair isn't the only one there is. Whilst outreach and networking is important it is also impossible for it to be all things to all people.

With that in mind. Do those who don't live in London attend any of the other regional bookfairs?

If so, how do they compare?

The 2019 Anarchist Bookfairs List

 

[Rob Ray]

They vary widely (sometimes from year to year). Edinburgh has a reputation for being very well organised, Nottingham's usually reasonably good as it's linked to Fiveleaves. When Bradford happens (intermittently) it's sort of 1in12 shaped . When Newcastle happens it's usually pretty good (not least because PM/Active have a base there), but I think their limited resources have been leaning towards the Star and Shadow rebuild for a while. Liverpool I don't know so much about.

Manchester and Bristol (neither happening this year) are the two other biggish events in Britain, then there's a bundle of relative tinies like Dorset, Norwich and Cambridge which come and go and depend heavily on who the organisers are.

 

[chilango]

London's Bookfair isn't the only one there is. Whilst outreach and networking is important it is also impossible for it to be all things to all people.

With that in mind. Do those who don't live in London attend any of the other regional bookfairs?

If so, how do they compare?

The 2019 Anarchist Bookfairs List

London is my "nearest".

 

[Treacle Toes]

London is my "nearest".

Fair enough. The comment wasn't just aimed at you specifically, it was more a general thought about responsibility, reach and expectations.

 

[crossthebreeze]

They vary widely (sometimes from year to year). Edinburgh has a reputation for being very well organised, Nottingham's usually reasonably good as it's linked to Fiveleaves. When Bradford happens (intermittently) it's sort of 1in12 shaped . When Newcastle happens it's usually pretty good (not least because PM/Active have a base there), but I think their limited resources have been leaning towards the Star and Shadow rebuild for a while. Liverpool I don't know so much about.

Manchester and Bristol (neither happening this year) are the two other biggish events in Britain, then there's a bundle of relative tinies like Dorset, Norwich and Cambridge which come and go and depend heavily on who the organisers are.

Something should be happening in Newcastle next year (but almost certainly different to what's happened before, and in memory of a comrade who recently died) - proper announcements will be forthcoming.

 

[chilango]

Fair enough. The comment wasn't just aimed at you specifically, it was more a general thought about responsibility, reach and expectations.

Yeah. I understand.

I'd respond that - partially at least - those in the movement with access to resources (groups, comrades, infrastructure etc.) have a greater responsibility than isolated anarchists or fellow travellers for "outreach" and using events such as the Bookfair as a tool for supporting those isolated to get a sense of being part of a bigger movement.

 

[LDC]

Fair enough. The comment wasn't just aimed at you specifically, it was more a general thought about responsibility, reach and expectations.

The London one is, like it or not, more of a 'national event' and acts as much more for the anarchist movement than just a bookfair. IME regional ones have their own flavor (often more counter cultural/punk/campaigning activism/'DIY culture' focused) and I have always found them much less interesting and useful generally.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Yeah. I understand.

I'd respond that - partially at least - those in the movement with access to resources (groups, comrades, infrastructure etc.) have a greater responsibility than isolated anarchists or fellow travellers for "outreach" and using events such as the Bookfair as a tool for supporting those isolated to get a sense of being part of a bigger movement.

Sounds reasonable and with the London one seeming to have more of a 'national' focus I can see why so expectations are high.

I do though also think that regional/localised stuff is just as important. And in fact, trying new things and/or getting involved can be less complicated IYSWIM. My hope is that anyone feeling 'isolated' is also doing what they can to address that and putting themselves 'out there' where possible.


Rhyddical You must be exhausted with all this effort you are putting in to engage/discuss/explain etc. I noticed you said you are having parallel conversations on other SM platforms as well. On top of any work you may be doing, and the actual thinking and organising stuff. All power to you.

How did you find this thread on Urban btw? Google search? Tip off from a comrade/contact? Or was Urban already on your radar?

 

[smokedout]

• Two days just isn't doable.
• Please don't do it on a half-term weekend, that's family time.

I agree with this. Two days might be something to work up to in time as the event and organising group grows, but having been involved in a lot of events myself I'd recommend keeping it as simple as possible first time round. The things that will end up causing the most shit and taking the most time you probably haven't even thought of yet, just getting the thing off the ground is a huge task, don't make it harder for yourselves

 

[danny la rouge]

how do they compare?

I can’t compare with London as I’ve never been. But I’ve been to both Edinburgh and Glasgow. Edinburgh is better. As Rob Ray says it’s better organised.

Agree with chilango ’s points about isolation etc.

 

[Rhyddical]

"I am unaware of any instance of this, and you have failed to point to any."

Ah right, you havn't seen it (even tho I've pointed directly at it) so it mustn't exist.

If you don't see anyone arguing in favour over very horrible stuff (in the activist scene in general), you live in a better bubble than mine pal x

"you seem more worried about convicted rapists' rights to their preferred pronoun, rather than women's right to discuss"

That is utter disengenous tosh. You can't possible be so niave as to believe that transphobes handing out leaflets saying "look at these sexual predators who just happen to be trans" doesn't develop the idea that trans women = rapists. We had this shit with "look at these gays who are peadophiles...now I'm not saying all gays are peodos, heck my mates gay, but do you really want a gay teaching your little boy?", that kind of symantics "not transphobia just concerns" are nothing but smoke screewns for bigotry.

I'm done with your merry go round, I think we understand each other quite well.



re; Two days.
Those are some really valid points and I'll bring them to the crew next we meet Right now it was a VERY loose idea which would mean London locals would have a second day of networking and skill sharing while everyone was in town, however it does mean a significant leap in many peoples expenses for some and make others feel like they have missed out so yeah, will discuss!


How did you find Urban 75
I've seen the forum here and there but never made an account. In this instance a friend shared the thread with me with an eye roll (about 3/6 pages in) and advised me to just leave it lol. Probably a good piece of advise but to be honest I believe in dealing with conflict head one. My real focus was less on the no transphobia policy which we've spent 10 pages on now and more addressing the early misgiving about who the fuck this new collective were and concerns that we were a buch of wet liberals who were going to make a right tits up of it and invite all manner of trash and pat our middle class backs. I think we got that sorted out tho once we identified me as a Northern bastard (who may or may not look sexy in high vis) haha

Other Bookfairs.
To be honest I thing the regional bookfairs are more important for the "scene", they need much more support than they get and If Bookfair 2020 goes down well we'll be looking to send funds onwards no doubt, especially the new ones like Newcastle and Dundee. I personally hate how it's all eyes on London all the fucking time and we need more "local stuff". Tho London does have a huge population so needs it's own bookfair in my mind, if we were really on it , we'd have a dozen smaller affairs in areas through out the year and every city would have atleast one. Mind you, having one big as a national event one does mean we get to put on a lot of stuff at the same time that otherwise wouldn't happen so I guess there is that (let alon the international stuff that smaller bookfairs wouldn't be able to do) tho in my head I think it'd do better if it toured the capitals? idk just an idle thought right now, probably a million problems with that.


Comrades who I organise with helped put on Manchester, Liverpool, Bristol and Edinburgh bookfairs and we're taking advice and seeking their support. I suspect they'll be actively involved in the 6 month prior to Bookfair 2020.

 

[TopCat]

"I am unaware of any instance of this, and you have failed to point to any."

Ah right, you havn't seen it (even tho I've pointed directly at it) so it mustn't exist.

If you don't see anyone arguing in favour over very horrible stuff (in the activist scene in general), you live in a better bubble than mine pal x

"you seem more worried about convicted rapists' rights to their preferred pronoun, rather than women's right to discuss"

That is utter disengenous tosh. You can't possible be so niave as to believe that transphobes handing out leaflets saying "look at these sexual predators who just happen to be trans" doesn't develop the idea that trans women = rapists. We had this shit with "look at these gays who are peadophiles...now I'm not saying all gays are peodos, heck my mates gay, but do you really want a gay teaching your little boy?", that kind of symantics "not transphobia just concerns" are nothing but smoke screewns for bigotry.

I'm done with your merry go round, I think we understand each other quite well.



re; Two days.
Those are some really valid points and I'll bring them to the crew next we meet Right now it was a VERY loose idea which would mean London locals would have a second day of networking and skill sharing while everyone was in town, however it does mean a significant leap in many peoples expenses for some and make others feel like they have missed out so yeah, will discuss!


How did you find Urban 75
I've seen the forum here and there but never made an account. In this instance a friend shared the thread with me with an eye roll (about 3/6 pages in) and advised me to just leave it lol. Probably a good piece of advise but to be honest I believe in dealing with conflict head one. My real focus was less on the no transphobia policy which we've spent 10 pages on now and more addressing the early misgiving about who the fuck this new collective were and concerns that we were a buch of wet liberals who were going to make a right tits up of it and invite all manner of trash and pat our middle class backs. I think we got that sorted out tho once we identified me as a Northern bastard (who may or may not look sexy in high vis) haha

Other Bookfairs.
To be honest I thing the regional bookfairs are more important for the "scene", they need much more support than they get and If Bookfair 2020 goes down well we'll be looking to send funds onwards no doubt, especially the new ones like Newcastle and Dundee. I personally hate how it's all eyes on London all the fucking time and we need more "local stuff". Tho London does have a huge population so needs it's own bookfair in my mind, if we were really on it , we'd have a dozen smaller affairs in areas through out the year and every city would have atleast one. Mind you, having one big as a national event one does mean we get to put on a lot of stuff at the same time that otherwise wouldn't happen so I guess there is that (let alon the international stuff that smaller bookfairs wouldn't be able to do) tho in my head I think it'd do better if it toured the capitals? idk just an idle thought right now, probably a million problems with that.


Comrades who I organise with helped put on Manchester, Liverpool, Bristol and Edinburgh bookfairs and we're taking advice and seeking their support. I suspect they'll be actively involved in the 6 month prior to Bookfair 2020.

Can you specify who you are quoting in bold please?

 

[Serge Forward]

I'll be at the Notts one. Sheffield used to be dead good but alas, tis no more

 

[The39thStep]

Are all these events going to abide by the same policy re transwomen?

 

[Athos]

Ah right, you havn't seen it (even tho I've pointed directly at it) so it mustn't exist.

You haven't provided a single example of what you claimed is happening i.e. '"anarchists" or "comrades" are infact seriously arguing that anyone who says all "trans women are rapists" arn't transphobic and should therefore be welcome in our revolutionary spaces.'

Undoubtedly, some people on Twitter are saying those things, but that's not the same as an anarchists arguing that people who say those those things are welcome in revolutionary spaces FFS!

You keep doing this; making claims, then not providing any evidence.

If you don't see anyone arguing in favour over very horrible stuff (in the activist scene in general), you live in a better bubble than mine pal x

I've seen lots of people arguing lots of unpleasant things; I haven't seen '"anarchists" or "comrades" are infact seriously arguing that anyone who says all "trans women are rapists" arn't transphobic and should therefore be welcome in our revolutionary spaces.' If I did, I'd take issue with it, because it's clearly transphobic.

You can't possible be so niave as to believe that transphobes handing out leaflets saying "look at these sexual predators who just happen to be trans" doesn't develop the idea that trans women = rapists.

All rapists are biologically male, and some trans women are rapists. Pointing that out is a world away from saying (or even implying) that all trans women are rapists. You think it unreasonable that women discuss the possible impact on their safety of the end of single-sex spaces?