Conversely, White liberals argue the opposite and it’s not their kids being murdered. It’s almost like the deaths are preferable to people being searched.
knife violence and murders among youth
- Thread starter DotCommunist
- Start date
Conversely, White liberals argue the opposite and it’s not their kids being murdered. It’s almost like the deaths are preferable to people being searched.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
I knew it, you Jude Law cunt!
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Don't be a tit. What's preferable would be no deaths, therefore no S60 notices. If you absolutely have to have stop and search though, is it too much to ask that the people doing the stopping deracialise their practice's, so that we don't get the further perpetuation of bogus criminalisation of black youths? For every knife happy youth that gets righteously nicked, two or three straight kids get nicked too. We've had decades of this shit. You'd have thought that even the morons manning the Home Office would have worked out that racial profiling is worthless and discriminatory.
You obviously didn’t read my earlier post properly (which you quoted) where I said there should be a middle ground between feeling everyone’s collar and doing very little to prevent it.
It’s funny that policing is thrown out of the window yet community action has also been sneered at on this thread.
Don’t do heavy policing - it’s racist.
Don’t do community action - it’s racist.
*black kids continue to die*
Don’t do community action - it’s racist.
*black kids continue to die*
Treacle Toes
Time
What do you care? You characterised them as all 'pimps and drug dealers' the other night.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
You did see the thing I posted about New York's experience with stop and search, yes? You have read various posters' objections to the idea of black kids being targetted for being black by racist stop and search policies, and the disastrous effect this has? One very simple thing the Met could do right now to help the situation would be to end its stop and search policy - unless they suspect someone of a specific crime, they leave everyone alone. Read up on what's happened in NY since they were forced by a court to end stop and search, or stop and frisk as they called it. It's part of the problem here, not part of the solution, just as it was in New York.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Heavy policing is stupid because it alienates lots of people with very little in the way of results.
I’d be surprised if I had written off all black kids as pimps and drug dealers. If I talk about pimps and drug dealers I mean pimps and drug dealers.
I obviously mean intelligence led rather than racial profiling.
I wouldn’t argue to stop everyone. The police only do that because they can’t be arsed to spend resources on identifying the right culprits as the victims aren’t Royal or Maddie McCann. What’s wrong with pressurising them into doing their job properly?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
There's some cognitive dissonance going on here
Treacle Toes
Time
The scariest thing here is that you either don't remember and/or you don't actually care enough to deal with and review the crap you have been posting here of late.
Magnus said:
Who are this 'we' you are factoring yourself into and excluding others from? And who are you talking about as 'all drug dealers and pimps'?
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littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
That can amount to the same thing. Intelligence: 'it was a group of black boys'; stop and search policy: 'we target black boys in this area tonight'. You can't get away from that: any intelligence worthy of the name is going to include some kind of physical description of potential suspects. Also, the areas targeted will skew results. So much so that if you're a young black male you are far more likely to be stopped than a young white male, or a young Chinese male for that matter. Here are a few stats broken down by ethnicity across the UK. Rates have fallen, which is good, but they need to fall way more.
Do you know the figures for how many stop and searches result in any kind of conviction for anything? Looking at some of the raw numbers, it has to be a very very low percentage. And every stop and search that doesn't lead to a conviction for something is another kid alienated that bit more from the police and from society in general. If that kid is black, you can add in that they now feel criminalised just for stepping out into the street in possession of dark skin, particularly after the second or third time it has happened to them. It's a disastrous policy. It creates a self-fulfilling prophecy. Also, because black people are so much more likely to be stopped, you'll get more black people arrested for carrying drugs/weapons. Simply because they're way more likely to be stopped, for no other reason. And that feeds back in to the 'intelligence' system.
ETA:
Thing is, all of the above is true even with an assumption of good faith and non-prejudice from the police. Add in the fact that it is the Met we are talking about here, with their ingrained bigotry and prejudice, their 'us and them' culture, and their reflex reaction to blame the victim whenever they fuck up, and the situation on the ground is in fact far worse.
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The working class / lumpenproletariat. As I’d set out in previous posts.
Pretty amusing that the only racism you’ve managed to expose is your own.
Treacle Toes
Time
It would be if that were true but it isn't. You don't remember posting that do you? If you had meant WC you would have said so at the time.
It's pretty pathetic that you don't have the balls to back up the dodgey shit you post. I'd laugh if it were funny but it isn't.
There are black victims in wc communities of these lumpen parasites. I include those in the ‘we’ (we don’t all become drug dealers and pimps).
You’re simply projecting how *you* think onto my words, hence you exposing your own racism, not mine.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
IWCA piece on London knife crime below:
Unlike the working class youngsters who signed up to fight ‘the Hun’ in 1918, today's knife wielders need no conditioning to kill. Still part of the working class, or the enemy of it?
The controversy over knife crime and stop and search rumbles on. Professor Green, the white rapper and television presenter, is the latest to weigh in. He states that presenting knife crime as a problem in black communities, even in London, is racist. For him and a whole regiment of other Guardian worthies it is as simple as that. Writing on Instagram after an interview with Good Morning Britain, Professor Green said there was bias in how recent stabbings had been reported. “There had been a lot of reference to a statistic that its largely black youths stabbing each other – what was left out that this was only true in certain areas. As anyone with a brain can work out in more densely populated areas the face of knife crime is white. That’s never represented in the media. The fact that the face of knife crime they project nationally is black youths implies institutional racism and criminalises a whole race, fitting their agenda to bring back racially profiled stop and search.”
He concluded: “I don’t think stop and search works to do anything apart from create more division, friction and a lack of trust of an organisation ever proven to growingly corrupt.”
Here is some data from the Mayor of London’s office for policing: last year approximately half of all knife crime victims and offenders were black or minority ethnic. Regarding knife crime that resulted in injury, 69 per cent of offenders and 55 per cent of victims were black or minority ethnic, while 64 per cent of non-domestic knife homicide came from the same racial demographic. Knife crime in London is disproportionately a young black male problem and at the very least it is deeply dishonest to pretend otherwise.
Liberal opponents of efforts to clamp down on the gangs - which are the drivers and inspiration for much of the carnage - point to the need for a more holistic approach as adopted by the successful Glaswegian model, but they side step the reality that stop and search had to be increased eight fold to provide the underpinning for the overall strategy to be effective. Even then it took a decade to fully kick in. So in resisting the use of stop and search even in the working class neighbourhoods where knife killings are rampant, there is a tacit acceptance that in order to be true to a growingly corrupt liberal ideology the loss of young black lives is a price worth paying: collateral damage at best. From that very narrow angle, not making this a black issue is where the real bias lies.
In 1914-18 when working class youngsters signed up to fight ‘the Hun’ they had to be conditioned by exasperated NCO’s to kill. That the knife wielders terrorising entire estates and even boroughs need no such conditioning points to them being representative of a different social demographic with markedly different values, instincts and interests. In truth they are the high profile representatives of a class apart and brazenly proud of it. The drill music videos (which are also defended by liberals naturally) are used as a propaganda tool by various crews to add glamour, vindication, and intricacy to their grisly trade. On the surface it is all about insults, stabbings and post codes, but deep down it is also about indoctrinating thousands of children and youngsters not directly involved into their wolf and lamb worldview. The resulting social contagion is arguably more deadly than the gangs themselves, a political dimension which is, needless to say, also totally ignored.
In short, the lawless lumpen are not in any way representative of the working class historically, not even the roughest end of it. Indeed in many black working class neighbourhoods especially in London they represent a visible enemy.
Yet as Professor Green and others would have it, blameless black youth versus institutionally racist police is what it is really about. To call this superficial is to put the kindest spin on it. Fundamentally, the unspoken (and uneven) struggle is between working class communities white and black on one hand, and their lumpen and liberal opponents on the other.
If you still doubt this analysis, ask yourself a simple question. Could the gangs ever be trusted as class allies? The answer will tell you whose side you are actually on.
Unlike the working class youngsters who signed up to fight ‘the Hun’ in 1918, today's knife wielders need no conditioning to kill. Still part of the working class, or the enemy of it?
The controversy over knife crime and stop and search rumbles on. Professor Green, the white rapper and television presenter, is the latest to weigh in. He states that presenting knife crime as a problem in black communities, even in London, is racist. For him and a whole regiment of other Guardian worthies it is as simple as that. Writing on Instagram after an interview with Good Morning Britain, Professor Green said there was bias in how recent stabbings had been reported. “There had been a lot of reference to a statistic that its largely black youths stabbing each other – what was left out that this was only true in certain areas. As anyone with a brain can work out in more densely populated areas the face of knife crime is white. That’s never represented in the media. The fact that the face of knife crime they project nationally is black youths implies institutional racism and criminalises a whole race, fitting their agenda to bring back racially profiled stop and search.”
He concluded: “I don’t think stop and search works to do anything apart from create more division, friction and a lack of trust of an organisation ever proven to growingly corrupt.”
Here is some data from the Mayor of London’s office for policing: last year approximately half of all knife crime victims and offenders were black or minority ethnic. Regarding knife crime that resulted in injury, 69 per cent of offenders and 55 per cent of victims were black or minority ethnic, while 64 per cent of non-domestic knife homicide came from the same racial demographic. Knife crime in London is disproportionately a young black male problem and at the very least it is deeply dishonest to pretend otherwise.
Liberal opponents of efforts to clamp down on the gangs - which are the drivers and inspiration for much of the carnage - point to the need for a more holistic approach as adopted by the successful Glaswegian model, but they side step the reality that stop and search had to be increased eight fold to provide the underpinning for the overall strategy to be effective. Even then it took a decade to fully kick in. So in resisting the use of stop and search even in the working class neighbourhoods where knife killings are rampant, there is a tacit acceptance that in order to be true to a growingly corrupt liberal ideology the loss of young black lives is a price worth paying: collateral damage at best. From that very narrow angle, not making this a black issue is where the real bias lies.
In 1914-18 when working class youngsters signed up to fight ‘the Hun’ they had to be conditioned by exasperated NCO’s to kill. That the knife wielders terrorising entire estates and even boroughs need no such conditioning points to them being representative of a different social demographic with markedly different values, instincts and interests. In truth they are the high profile representatives of a class apart and brazenly proud of it. The drill music videos (which are also defended by liberals naturally) are used as a propaganda tool by various crews to add glamour, vindication, and intricacy to their grisly trade. On the surface it is all about insults, stabbings and post codes, but deep down it is also about indoctrinating thousands of children and youngsters not directly involved into their wolf and lamb worldview. The resulting social contagion is arguably more deadly than the gangs themselves, a political dimension which is, needless to say, also totally ignored.
In short, the lawless lumpen are not in any way representative of the working class historically, not even the roughest end of it. Indeed in many black working class neighbourhoods especially in London they represent a visible enemy.
Yet as Professor Green and others would have it, blameless black youth versus institutionally racist police is what it is really about. To call this superficial is to put the kindest spin on it. Fundamentally, the unspoken (and uneven) struggle is between working class communities white and black on one hand, and their lumpen and liberal opponents on the other.
If you still doubt this analysis, ask yourself a simple question. Could the gangs ever be trusted as class allies? The answer will tell you whose side you are actually on.
ManchesterBeth
Well-Known Member
Why aren't they talking about large swathes of the UK being made an industrial reserve army?
Also professor Green was always a joke.
Also professor Green was always a joke.
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ManchesterBeth
Well-Known Member
lumpens are not a scientifically defined class with historical interests in the sense that proletariat/bourgeoisie is.
Are all the drug gangs lumpen as well?
Are all the drug gangs lumpen as well?
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If we ever expect to rebuild class solidarity/consciousness in communities then drug gangs are one of the obstacles to that so will need confronting at some stage along the line. Unless they somehow represent a progressive element?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
perhaps was always a joke counts as an incisive political argument in your tradition but it's a bit light here
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
It's not about individuals or this mob or that mob its about the collective dynamic - which is directly detrimental to the interests of our class. As the article correctly states 'the struggle is between working class communities, white and black on one hand, and their lumpen and liberal opponents'.
ManchesterBeth
Well-Known Member
well yeah. that isn't really saying anything though. I've seen similar stuff by some left comms attacking leftist support for the panthers and all it is a sectarian beef that people who aren't in leftist orgs simply don't care about. like this whole analysis seems to revolve around the spectre of professor green that the guardianistas get their pants in a twist about. come on the left's social base went over to neoliberalism starting as early as the 1970s.
ManchesterBeth
Well-Known Member
right on, trotbot.
Treacle Toes
Time
I am not sure that you understand what racism is tbh
Whilst it seems like a step forward that you are now trying to pass off points that others have had to make to you as your own you still don't appear to engage with your own associations at all. Blaming me for noticing is piss poor.
For example compare...
'There are Black victims in working class communities'
'There are Black working class victims'
There is a difference.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
I do like the image of plucky young men signing up to fight the gun in 14-18, nicely forgetting the introduction of conscription in 1916. And it's not like people fighting in subsequent wars were entirely eager to kill. What the article doesn't consider in its haste to denigrate its target is the role computer games, in particular first person shooter games, may play. The US army reports keen game players make better soldiers and have i think developed games themselves. I don't think it's a particularly good article with its peculiar contrast of upstanding working class (white) men of 1914-18 who needed conditioning to kill and the lumpen young (black) men of today who need no such compulsion
ManchesterBeth
Well-Known Member
Basically i am trying to understand who this article's target audience is Smokeandsteam
Sorry if my posts aren’t academic enough for your well educated ass.
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