knife violence and murders among youth

[hammerntongues]

I also think when things become normalised the fear diminishes , what to the majority would seem a crazy dangerous life just becomes LIFE , many of us would not even venture outside our front doors if there was a genuine threat of being stabbed but to a lot of these these guys its just normal . I would even go as far to say that they enjoy it , the thrill and danger , the bragging about it and the reputations gained . To get young guys , which the majority are , to give up something they enjoy is a tough ask . I revert back to football violence of the 80`s which has many similarities , it wont be the intervention of the government or the forces of law that halt the progression of violence it has to be a cultural change . I am not suggesting dishing out Es by the handful but it might help .

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Self defence. Grand. And legal training? This will end in tears and possible jail time or penury.

You’ve conflated things. As I understand it the self defence training isn’t for the residents patrols. At the moment they call the police to report crime.

Of course you are right, there are risks with this type of activity - from the cops who don’t like being exposed as essentially anti community and not very interested in this type of crime and the areas in which it is committed, as well as initially from those not used to being challenged. How the group think these challenges through and if and how it addresses them will decide if this fizzles out or not. They are now reporting over 1,000 people wanting to get involved in community patrols.

 

[Pickman's model]

You’ve conflated things. As I understand it the self defence training isn’t for the residents patrols. At the moment they call the police to report crime.

Of course you are right, there are risks with this type of activity - from the cops who don’t like being exposed as essentially anti community and not very interested in this type of crime and the areas in which it is committed, as well as initially from those not used to being challenged. How the group think these challenges through and if and how it addresses them will decide if this fizzles out or not. They are now reporting over 1,000 people wanting to get involved in community patrols.

Yeh stupid me I've conflated things still at least I'm not stupid enough to recruit people for vigilante patrols and send them out without some legal training or insurance. Do you know the law on citizen's arrests or assault? I'd have hoped there'd be some basic screening of volunteers so no obvious bias against 'ethnics' or 'coloureds' or whatnot slipped through. How long before this comes a cropper? Weeks? Months? Days?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

At the moment they call the police to report crime.

You can definitely rule out left involvement then on top of telling you not to do anything as you don’t have the right training.

 

[Pickman's model]

You can definitely rule out left involvement then on top of telling you not to do anything as you don’t have the right training.

Yeh you'd have people go on the streets without training and then when they're nicked for assault for fucking up a citizen's arrest you'd leave them high and dry

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Yeh stupid me I've conflated things still at least I'm not stupid enough to recruit people for vigilante patrols and send them out without some legal training or insurance. Do you know the law on citizen's arrests or assault? I'd have hoped there'd be some basic screening of volunteers so no obvious bias against 'ethnics' or 'coloureds' or whatnot slipped through. How long before this comes a cropper? Weeks? Months? Days?

If this is a genuine community initiative, as it appears to be, then it is likely that these types of issues won’t have been considered. I don’t know however, perhaps they have been. I’ve already said I’m keen to learn more about the group and it’s organsiers.

What I do know if that mistakes will inevitably be made. Of course, there will be a learning curve. And, there will come a point where political questions will need to be confronted.

I’m glad I posted on here - already it’s been attacked because of the ‘names’ of the organisers, received veiled accusations of racism and suggestions that the group should seek legal advice before getting involved in their own community. Telling.

 

[Pickman's model]

If this is a genuine community initiative, as it appears to be, then it is likely that these types of issues won’t have been considered. I don’t know however, perhaps they have been. I’ve alresy said I’m keen to learn more about the group and it’s organsiers.

What I do know if that mistakes will inevitably be made. Of course, there will be a learning curve. And, there will come a point where political questions will need to be confronted.

I’m glad I posted on here - already it’s been attacked because of the ‘names’ of the organisers, received veiled accusations of racism and suggestions that the group should seek legal advice before getting involved in their own community.

if as i suspect you're referring to my post above about screening as a veiled accusation of racism, you're wrong. we already have a racist force patrolling the streets of birmingham and other cities, and we certainly don't need another - hence my hope that there'd be some sort of basic interview to among other things ascertain legal knowledge and to try to avoid certain pitfalls like including people who are racist.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

if as i suspect you're referring to my post above about screening as a veiled accusation of racism, you're wrong. we already have a racist force patrolling the streets of birmingham and other cities, and we certainly don't need another - hence my hope that there'd be some sort of basic interview to among other things ascertain legal knowledge and to try to avoid certain pitfalls like including people who are racist.

Before self styled experts pile in and start telling others what to do and/or leaping to conclusions without any evidence whatsoever, a better approach might be to find out some basic facts about the group and, if it’s legit, to offer some supportive advice based on past experience as and when the time is right.

 

[Pickman's model]

Before self styled experts pile in

i haven't styled myself an expert.

and start telling others what to do and/or leaping to conclusions without any evidence whatsoever, a better approach might be to find out some basic facts about the group and, if it’s legit, to offer some supportive advice based on past experience as and when the time is right.

i think pointing out the need for insurance, screening and appropriate legal training is supportive. and the time's right now, before it all goes tits up because no one's pointed these things out.

 

[andysays]

No. I’m in the process of finding out more about it and it’s aims and if members of any political group are prominent - we can, of course, rule the ‘left’ out of that line of inquiry.

I’m not sure what your point about the names of the organisers is. What would you like them to be?

I don't have a problem with the names of the organisers, but if they are to represent the whole community, I would hope that at least some of the 400 members have names like Ahmed and Ayesha.

And I was asking if you were involved because if you were you might be able to give us more info.

Maybe you can let us know more about the make up of the group once you've found out yourself.

 

[andysays]

If this is a genuine community initiative, as it appears to be, then it is likely that these types of issues won’t have been considered. I don’t know however, perhaps they have been. I’ve already said I’m keen to learn more about the group and it’s organsiers.

What I do know if that mistakes will inevitably be made. Of course, there will be a learning curve. And, there will come a point where political questions will need to be confronted.

I’m glad I posted on here - already it’s been attacked because of the ‘names’ of the organisers, received veiled accusations of racism and suggestions that the group should seek legal advice before getting involved in their own community. Telling.

To be clear, I wasn't attacking anything or anyone, I was asking what I consider to be an important question.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I wonder how many Ahmeds and Ayeshas we have here on Urban.

 

[DotCommunist]

metro article headline '400 hundred join vigilante mob'

Nearly 400 join Birmingham vigilante mob We Stand Determined after losing trust in police | Metro News


the headline is very judgy there, that choice of words.

 

[andysays]

I wonder how many Ahmeds and Ayeshas we have here on Urban.

As far as I'm aware, Urban isn't involved in self-titled vigilante crime fighting action or claiming to represent a whole community, though there may be threads in the Brixton forum I've missed.

 

[Pickman's model]

As far as I'm aware, Urban isn't involved in self-titled vigilante crime fighting action or claiming to represent a whole community, though there may be threads in the Brixton forum I've missed.

there's dozens in the dulwich hamlets forum, it's a hotbed of community crime fighting

 

[Magnus McGinty]

As far as I'm aware, Urban isn't involved in self-titled vigilante crime fighting action or claiming to represent a whole community, though there may be threads in the Brixton forum I've missed.

Perhaps you could draft up a constitution including a clause outlining the correct ethic quotas.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I don't have a problem with the names of the organisers, but if they are to represent the whole community, I would hope that at least some of the 400 members have names like Ahmed and Ayesha.

And I was asking if you were involved because if you were you might be able to give us more info.

Maybe you can let us know more about the make up of the group once you've found out yourself.

I've already said I'm not involved. I found out about the group via social media.

However, this morning I have taken steps to find out a bit more about the organisers and check if there is any political group involved. The initial indications are that this is a genuine community initiative, albeit one that has snowballed from one estate into something much bigger after the press locally picked up on it. As such, the organisers are now having to do some thinking about what they want to do next. So an important point.

To date the activity has been small stuff limited to escorting vulnerable residents upon request as they go about the estate and occupation of space by the community. Already, the cops are showing a negative interest. Positive signs. Less positively the organisers allegedly want funding from local business to build the group and fund activity. However, at this point they should be afforded the benefit of the doubt as I am told that for all of them this is the first 'political' activity for any of them.

At present, and inevitably, all sorts of detritus is sniffing about given the levels of interest and support -like our old pals the bearded bros (who ran the botched scabbing operation during the bins strike last year).

It is likely that a public meeting will be called shortly possibly in Stechford I am told.

 

[andysays]

I've already said I'm not involved. I found out about the group via social media.

However, this morning I have taken steps to find out a bit more about the organisers and check if there is any political group involved. The initial indications are that this is a genuine community initiative, albeit one that has snowballed from one estate into something much bigger after the press locally picked up on it. As such, the organisers are now having to do some thinking about what they want to do next. So an important point.

To date the activity has been small stuff limited to escorting vulnerable residents upon request as they go about the estate and occupation of space by the community. Already, the cops are showing a negative interest. Positive signs. Less positively the organisers allegedly want funding from local business to build the group and fund activity. However, at this point they should be afforded the benefit of the doubt as I am told that for all of them this is the first 'political' activity for any of them.

At present, and inevitably, all sorts of detritus is sniffing about given the levels of interest and support -like our old pals the bearded bros (who ran the botched scabbing operation during the bins strike last year).

It is likely that a public meeting will be called shortly possibly in Stechford I am told.

Fair enough. I am genuinely interested in hearing more as you discover more.

But as a general point, simply calling yourselves a community group doesn't mean you represent the whole community, and if you're deliberately calling yourselves a vigilante group, I think you need to make extra sure you can't be mistaken for representing only one part of the community.

 

[andysays]

Perhaps you could draft up a constitution including a clause outlining the correct ethic quotas.

Perhaps you could fuck off deliberately distorting what others are saying

 

[Treacle Toes]

Perhaps MM could finally tell us about the utopia from which he hails and link us to how 'his' community do things. From the way he posts he certainly has it all worked out. I am puzzled why he won't provide more details tbh. Sharing is caring afterall.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Do you think you’ve caught me out or something? I simply got tired of that line of discussion so withdrew in order to keep the thread on track.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Do you think you’ve caught me out or something? I simply got tired of that line of discussion so withdrew in order to keep the thread on track.

You mean you couldn't back up the silly boasts you made, nor justify the absolute cack you posted so chose to ignore the questions you were asked hoping people would forget. Yes, we know.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

You mean you couldn't back up the silly boasts you made, nor justify the absolute cack you posted so chose to ignore the questions you were asked hoping people would forget. Yes, we know.

No, I mean I didn’t even read your post as I find discussing anything with you draining.

 

[Treacle Toes]

No, I mean I didn’t even read your post as I find discussing anything with you draining.

Oh...cutting. Ouch!

Convenient way to avoid backing up lies and nonsense.

At least you are not claiming to be joking this time.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

At least you’ve decided I’m being truthful now.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Nah, we both know that isn't likely.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

But as a general point, simply calling yourselves a community group doesn't mean you represent the whole community, and if you're deliberately calling yourselves a vigilante group, I think you need to make extra sure you can't be mistaken for representing only one part of the community.

I think at present managing the interest and deciding what to do next is their focus. They have seen a very concentrated local initiative attract massive attention and have been inundated with support - positive and otherwise. They need to carefully think through the next steps. I'm really not sure what else I can add at this point other than to say you've made this point previously and that I have said that as far as I know this isn't the case.

 

[Pickman's model]

They have seen a very concentrated local initiative attract massive attention and have been inundated with support - positive and otherwise.

both positive and negative support

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yeah, it means knives are more likely to be stashed rather than carried, while the targeting of stop and search generates more alienation and resentment.

There's a lot of stashing around Tulse Hill, that I see. I try to do my bit by going out with my litter grabber in the early hours, picking up stuff from under bushes etc and binning it in the nearest dumpster. Kids just go and shoplift another cheap kitchen knife from Morleys, though, so it's kind of never-ending.

The solutions to these problems aren't simple. Most important of all, we need decent community support systems in place, so struggling parents can be supported by their peers, whether that's regarding parenting, budgeting or whatever. Also important is to impress upon kids that fighting each other only benefits the state. A dead working class kid is just one fewer potential dole claimant, as far as the state is concerned.
It's all very well to talk about getting more police out there, but unless the pattern of policing in multicultural areas is changed radically, then criminalisation of black youth will continue, and the cycle of social ills caused by racist policing practices will continue too.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Maybe the police could work WITH those communities in getting this shit sorted? It’s like there’s a decision between no policing or racial profiling stop and search with no sensible options in between.

There are very few options in between, currently. Across London "Safer Neighbourhood" teams have seen staffing levels reduced by an average of two thirds, so the intelligence led and on the doorstep policing that helped attenuate and/or ameliorate poverty related problems, has been flushed down the shitter, and we're back to the nostrums of Michael Howard and Margaret Thatcher: Toughness on crime, with no regard to the causes. For the state, stop and search is the only feasible policy, because it's not middle class white kids/their kids being affected.