knife violence and murders among youth

[Pickman's model]

Thats really excellent. One of the sticking points for me has always been having a problem with people who have a non-work ethic, basically the bloody idle, and the problems they bring to communities. That attitude of entitlement is divisive and it breeds anti social crime, and the sooner it’s called out and not tolerated the better.

When you say non-work do you mean an aversion to paid toil or an aversion to doing something useful? The two are very different. Anyway you meet lots of employed people with a non-work ethic, however you want to define it.

 

[A380]

Police seek power to stop and search when their grounds for suspicion are unreasonable:

Police in talks to scrap 'reasonable grounds' condition for stop and search

Never going to happen.

 

[Edie]

When you say non-work do you mean an aversion to paid toil or an aversion to doing something useful? The two are very different. Anyway you meet lots of employed people with a non-work ethic, however you want to define it.

I mean earning a living. Grafting.

 

[ska invita]

Never going to happen.

One of the heads of police was on the news saying just that today and suggesting the press have got carried away with themselves

 

[A380]

When you say non-work do you mean an aversion to paid toil or an aversion to doing something useful? The two are very different. Anyway you meet lots of employed people with a non-work ethic, however you want to define it.

I’ve been working for thirty five years now, made an ok success at a few jobs and I’m a right lazy fucker.

 

[mojo pixy]

.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

If there aren’t enough jobs (and there aren’t) then those at the sharp end of that (I’ve been there myself) should organise against that, rather than simply becoming dealers and making things worse for everyone else. Work ethic can mean alsorts. Unpaid community work for the benefit of all rather than becoming the dark underside to Thatcherite dreams.

 

[mojo pixy]

I hate to state the glaringly obvious, but there's money in dealing drugs that there isn't in social enterprise. That's why it's hard to know where to begin.

Bank robbery might unite communities but it'd take a brave leader to say so.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I come from an area of the country where de-industrialisation had (and continues to have) a massive impact on prospects and employment. If only we’d all decided to be drug dealers and pimps! At least some on here, who didn’t live there, would have had our backs.

 

[Humberto]

What we are, or should be talking about, is reasons for children and young adults joining gangs and having a lifestyle that directs them towards danger. In a society that deports Windrush immigrants we should remember. Drug dealers and pimps is one thing, work ethic another. You can't write off people that age as some kind of societal parasite. Its lack of choice, not choices lacking in 'decency'/'moral fibre'. It starts with, or at least a crucial factor is in my opinion, inequality. It glaringly bad in London in particular.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I can’t disagree with that, lack of economic opportunity is obviously a factor. But that said, we can’t simply use that as apologism: there’s people suffering the dual effects of low prospects AND gang violence. Our solidarity should be with them.

 

[Celyn]

People who have a "work ethic" can cause problems too. And people without a paid job often do constructive and socially useful things.

I'm sure Harold Shipman had a "work ethic". Likewise Jimmy Savile. The guys burning a model of Grenfell tower were mostly gainfully employed, as were those child abuse guys in Rotherham.

 

[LiamO]

People who have a "work ethic" can cause problems too. And people without a paid job often do constructive and socially useful things.

I'm sure Harold Shipman had a "work ethic". Likewise Jimmy Savile. The guys burning a mode of Grenfell tower were mostly gainfully employed, as were those child abuse guys in Rotherham.

Multiple "Likes". Top post.

 

[A380]

I’m with the German First World War General Kurt von Hammerstein-Equord ; both on his opposition to the Nazi’s and this:

“I divide my officers into four groups. There are clever, diligent, stupid, and lazy officers. Usually two characteristics are combined.

Some are clever and diligent -- their place is the General Staff.

The next lot are stupid and lazy -- they make up 90 percent of every army and are suited to routine duties.

Anyone who is both clever and lazy is qualified for the highest leadership duties, because he possesses the intellectual clarity and the composure necessary for difficult decisions.

One must beware of anyone who is stupid and diligent -- he must not be entrusted with any responsibility because he will always cause only mischief.”

 

[Pickman's model]

People who have a "work ethic" can cause problems too. And people without a paid job often do constructive and socially useful things.

I'm sure Harold Shipman had a "work ethic". Likewise Jimmy Savile. The guys burning a model of Grenfell tower were mostly gainfully employed, as were those child abuse guys in Rotherham.

The late rev Ian Kyle Paisley most certainly had a work ethic, as do most politicians and I think I can say without fear of contradiction that people like Ian Duncan Smith have wreaked far more havoc on communities up and down the land than out of work idle people.

 

[Treacle Toes]

If there aren’t enough jobs (and there aren’t) then those at the sharp end of that (I’ve been there myself) should organise against that, rather than simply becoming dealers and making things worse for everyone else. Work ethic can mean alsorts. Unpaid community work for the benefit of all rather than becoming the dark underside to Thatcherite dreams.

'Simply becoming dealers' Is that what's happening then? Your rose spectacled rant doesn't seem to factor in the fact that people need money to live/survive. Many young people who end up in gangs or turn to crime are not in education/training/work, perhaps you can tell me how volunteering is gonna help them live and where all these volunteering opportunities are for the types of socially excluded individuals we are discussing here.

I come from an area of the country where de-industrialisation had (and continues to have) a massive impact on prospects and employment. If only we’d all decided to be drug dealers and pimps! At least some on here, who didn’t live there, would have had our backs.

I notice you don't name the utopia from which you hail. I can only imagine that is because it is world famous for it's social cohesion, youth mentorship programs, lack or crime etc. Can you also link to these thriving youth led movements that are challenging the lack of prospects/jobs too so we can all see where your informaed advice above comes from?

Moreover, who are this 'we' you are factoring yourself into and excluding others from? And who are you talking about as 'all drug dealers and pimps'?

I can’t disagree with that, lack of economic opportunity is obviously a factor. But that said, we can’t simply use that as apologism: there’s people suffering the dual effects of low prospects AND gang violence. Our solidarity should be with them.

No one here is apologising for anything of the bloody sort. Also, again your logic fails to acknowledge that very often those suffering the dual effects of low prospects and gang violence are the very people caught up in and participating in it. If only the world was as simple as you make out, where victims and perps could be so easily distinguished between.

I really hope you were drunk last night. The cack you come out with belongs to red faced arseholes on QT.

 

[Pickman's model]

What we are, or should be talking about, is reasons for children and young adults joining gangs and having a lifestyle that directs them towards danger. In a society that deports Windrush immigrants we should remember. Drug dealers and pimps is one thing, work ethic another. You can't write off people that age as some kind of societal parasite. Its lack of choice, not choices lacking in 'decency'/'moral fibre'. It starts with, or at least a crucial factor is in my opinion, inequality. It glaringly bad in London in particular.

Sure many dealers and pimps have a work ethic

 

[Athos]

A lot of people on this thread confusing individual 'choices' (judged from a 'moral' perspective) with structural issues.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I'm sure Harold Shipman had a "work ethic". Likewise Jimmy Savile.

Slightly disturbing that you use a doctor who murdered his patients and a Children’s TV personality that preyed on kids as examples of having a work ethic.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Sure many dealers and pimps have a work ethic

pimpin' ain't easy.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

I’ve been working for thirty five years now, made an ok success at a few jobs and I’m a right lazy fucker.

Same here except I haven't really made a success of any of my jobs. I do just enough. Not a jot more.

 

[Pickman's model]

pimpin' ain't easy.

yeh, you need to be able to recruit and motivate your workforce in what may not always be the easiest of circumstances

 

[Celyn]

Slightly disturbing that you use a doctor who murdered his patients and a Children’s TV personality that preyed on kids as examples of having a work ethic.

Well, they weren't "bloody idle". . Kept themselves busy, sadly.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

In Birmingham a group has been set up called ‘We Stand Determined’. This is a community ‘vigilante’ group that will operate where the community feels under attack rather than where the police direct them. At present the group say they aren’t anti police but note that the police are incapable of tackling violent anti social behaviour. Self defence will be taught and patrols are being mounted. Over 400 people have signed up in 3 weeks according to this:

Over 400 people join Brum vigilante group to protect streets

 

[andysays]

In Birmingham a group has been set up called ‘We Stand Determined’. This is a community ‘vigilante’ group that will operate where the community feels under attack rather than where the police direct them. At present the group say they aren’t anti police but note that the police are incapable of tackling violent anti social behaviour. Self defence will be taught and patrols are being mounted. Over 400 people have signed up in 3 weeks according to this:

Over 400 people join Brum vigilante group to protect streets

Are you involved with group?

I notice the names of the organisers are Wayne, Tracy and Michael. Do you think they represent the whole community, or just a particular section of it?

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Are you involved with group?

I notice the names of the organisers are Wayne, Tracy and Michael. Do you think they represent the whole community, or just a particular section of it?

No. I’m in the process of finding out more about it and it’s aims and if members of any political group are prominent - we can, of course, rule the ‘left’ out of that line of inquiry.

I’m not sure what your point about the names of the organisers is. What would you like them to be?

 

[Pickman's model]

In Birmingham a group has been set up called ‘We Stand Determined’. This is a community ‘vigilante’ group that will operate where the community feels under attack rather than where the police direct them. At present the group say they aren’t anti police but note that the police are incapable of tackling violent anti social behaviour. Self defence will be taught and patrols are being mounted. Over 400 people have signed up in 3 weeks according to this:

Over 400 people join Brum vigilante group to protect streets

Have they taken out any form of insurance?

 

[Pickman's model]

In Birmingham a group has been set up called ‘We Stand Determined’. This is a community ‘vigilante’ group that will operate where the community feels under attack rather than where the police direct them. At present the group say they aren’t anti police but note that the police are incapable of tackling violent anti social behaviour. Self defence will be taught and patrols are being mounted. Over 400 people have signed up in 3 weeks according to this:

Over 400 people join Brum vigilante group to protect streets

Self defence. Grand. And legal training? This will end in tears and possible jail time or penury.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

No. I’m in the process of finding out more about it and it’s aims and if members of any political group are prominent - we can, of course, rule the ‘left’ out of that line of inquiry.

I’m not sure what your point about the names of the organisers is. What would you like them to be?

Tarquin, Lavender and Benedict.

 

[Pickman's model]

Tarquin, Lavender and Benedict.

Charles Philip Arthur George