knife violence and murders among youth

[Magnus McGinty]

There are plenty of resources. Have you seen Britain's armed forces? The nuclear bomb? The wars Britain has engaged in over the last couple of decades? So with political will, resources can be found to do all kinds of things. That's a given, surely. But I'm not clear what you're calling for here. A series of covert operations to bring down the gangs? That sounds like something that would backfire spectacularly.

I imagine people would applaud. It has to appear alongside social policies though- I agree with that.

 

[ska invita]

People embracing a 'non-work ethic' is nothing new, mind. Plenty of that in the 1980s. Maybe I'm a bad person, but I'm more sympathetic to it than that article, which appears to be condemning people for not settling for whichever crap job they might be able to get.

This bit in particular seems to miss a few points for me:



Again, maybe I'm a bad person, but there's nothing perverse in my book about feeling good about taking a bit more than the state tells you you're entitled to when you think the state has basically fucked you over.

I don't pretend to know much about the gang culture being referred to, so maybe the article's characterisation of it is accurate, but it reads a bit like a caricature to me.

yeah it doesnt read right on a few points.

how about this

well over 50 teen murders in London alone in two years and counting. That there is nothing similar in working class culture in the past half century to match this level of pathology cannot be ignored. The razor gangs, teddy boys, mods and rockers, punks and skinheads, and football hooligans did not come close.

the age has come down but the scale hasn't at all... the age coming down thing i think thats part of the pulling up of the economic ladder on this generation and the weird culture we have here relating to children in general.

Maybe this isnt the right moment to bring this up but the national culture doesnt value children and young people. Students and mums with prams are open insults. Children crying or playing loudly is a social crime. the difference between attitudes in the UK and mainland Europe is enormous. More widely if your not in employment British culture doesnt value you...im sure there are deep historic roots to it.

There's a good point within this somewhere but im feeling tired to make it properly.

Which suggests that the type of individuals being steadily immersed into the gang culture are themselves the product of a new social formation. Instead of being the representative of alienated working class youth as portrayed especially in liberal and right wing circles, the leaders and opinion formers are more often than not the progeny of the ‘fallen idle’ – a renegade section of the working class that has learned to embrace the ‘no-work ethic’.

have i understood that right, its saying the kids in gangs come from the homes of the 'fallen idol'. what a slur on the parents - its just outright wrong that in many cases. Reads like the Daily Mail. Lots of the parents will be working their arses off and thats even part of the problem.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Did I just imagine that Britain in general, and London in particular, has a long history of violent gang culture?

Knife crime in London is up in the last couple of years, but only back to levels that existed as recently as 5 years ago. There is more than a whiff of moral panic around some of this.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Did I just imagine that Britain in general, and London in particular, has a long history of violent gang culture?

Knife crime in London is up in the last couple of years, but only back to levels that existed as recently as 5 years ago. There is more than a whiff of moral panic around some of this.

I’m not sure what use the argument is of it being a ‘new’ thing. Almost like it doesn’t matter if we can trace it back.
Kids dying is actually just preserved heritage.

 

[ska invita]

Did I just imagine that Britain in general, and London in particular, has a long history of violent gang culture?

Knife crime in London is up in the last couple of years, but only back to levels that existed as recently as 5 years ago. There is more than a whiff of moral panic around some of this.

upthread weve got figures going back to the 80s

though it doesnt show the age of attackers and victims

that is a spike of 50% in 2 years though in graph above

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I’m not sure what use the argument is of it being a ‘new’ thing. Almost like it doesn’t matter if we can trace it back.
Kids dying is actually just preserved heritage.

No, but a lot of the coverage I've read has spoken of this as if it were new. Yes, the trends are worrying, but London isn't suddenly a completely different place. It appears much the same to me, just with a bit of added violence due to the shitfest that is austerity.

 

[ska invita]

I’m not sure what use the argument is of it being a ‘new’ thing. Almost like it doesn’t matter if we can trace it back.
Kids dying is actually just preserved heritage.

id like to think its like a #metoo enough is enough moment. would be good if so. so long as it doesnt lead to a watershed moment of just MORE POLICE NOW

 

[Pickman's model]

id like to the its like a #metoo enough is enough moment. would be good if so. so long as it doesnt lead to a watershed moment of just MORE POLICE NOW

No one's going to offer more police now, it's ok

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I’m against MORE POLICE NOW.
But that’s easy enough for me to say given it isn’t my child being slaughtered.

 

[Pickman's model]

No, but a lot of the coverage I've read has spoken of this as if it were new. Yes, the trends are worrying, but London isn't suddenly a completely different place. It appears much the same to me, just with a bit of added violence due to the shitfest that is austerity.

You might have observed that surgeons are reporting that stabbing incidents now feature multiple stab wounds more frequently than they used to, the attacks are more severe than they used to be.

 

[A380]

There is certainly an aspect of that, but it really needs to be appreciated how much has actually been cut over the past ten years (and of course the process is continuing apace).

For example, Lambeth fourteen years ago had three sub-command stations (Streatham, Brixton, Kennington) that response teams worked out of as well as several other subsidary stations (Gipsy Hill, Cavendish Road, even Clapham Road for a brief time)that had SNTs and other units - as well as a considerable number of police staff in the control room, station officers and acting as gaolers which meant that those roles didn't need to be covered by a PC for most of the time.

First the communications staff (which at that time would have been 2 controllers and 6-8 communications officers per shift) went up to what was then Metcall, many of them left, were only partially replaced (by people on worse terms and conditions) and now their functions are covered by one controller and three communications officers (some of whom are police officers because of losses to police staff). Then many of the subsidary stations were sold off, the sub-commands merged and followed eventually by Streatham being sold as well and Kennington closing for most of the time (and being next on the list to go, it seems). Station officers were got rid of (either retired, took voluntary redundancy or accepted worse terms and became PCSOs - though the role has been brought back now) and the gaolers found themselves transferred to the centralized Met Detention command. The loss of police staff was especially crippling because many of the roles they used to fill did not go away and someone (ie: a police officer) had to be found to fill them. Meanwhile the response teams themselves went from having 2-3 Inspectors, 3-6 Sergeants and probably around 50 PCs per shift to about two thirds of that, and had to cover a wider area than before. Now Lambeth itself is being amalgamated with Southwark, seemingly because of the recognition that borough-based policing is financially unsustainable and this is the only way the Met can deliver a similar level of service.

This has happened all over London and apparently things are even worse in the counties. There has been an awful lot of good work and effort put into trying to improve the service that people get from the Police despite these cuts (body-worn video, the recent improvements to 101 and expanding the ways in which people can report things to name three) and many of the officers are working far more than they used to (which is not to say that they were lazy before, more that there was more of the downtime that is a healthy if not fundamental thing in any emergency service), but no organization can continue after sustaining the hits that have been recieved ever since Boris became Mayor in 2008 and the Coalition winning the 2010 GE. Sadly the results are now becoming obvious to all.

Even worse in the counties. Pick any unitary authority, or borough and it’s almost certain there will be more people working in the McDonalds in that area than police officers / PCSOs responding to incidents and working in local teams. This is probably true for places that don’t have McDonalds.

The county line phenomenon is partly down to this vacuum. The level of violence in smalker towns between people involved in the drug trade, and the levels of force to keep the local people they are cuckooing in line has increased almost exponentially in the last five or so years.

A perfect storm of the cuts the rest of the public sector faced and Cameron’s personal vendetta for having his first forray into politics scupperd. (Pig fucker...)

 

[stuff_it]

Did I just imagine that Britain in general, and London in particular, has a long history of violent gang culture?

Knife crime in London is up in the last couple of years, but only back to levels that existed as recently as 5 years ago. There is more than a whiff of moral panic around some of this.

Two points about this graph -

1. There's no mention of age ranges involved, or changes in the age ranges involved
   
2. What counts as 'knife crime' for the purposes of these figures? People injured/killed? People who reported being threatened with a knife? People caught carrying?

You might have observed that surgeons are reporting that stabbing incidents now feature multiple stab wounds more frequently than they used to, the attacks are more severe than they used to be.

Another thing the graph doesn't mention.

 

[Pickman's model]

Another thing the graph doesn't mention.

And why should it? It is a reflection of the number of incidents reported to police, not the number of stab wounds discovered by doctors

 

[stuff_it]

And why should it? It is a reflection of the number of incidents reported to police, not the number of stab wounds discovered by doctors

It would be nice to have one that did is all.

 

[A380]

And why should it? It is a reflection of the number of incidents reported to police, not the number of stab wounds discovered by doctors

A&E data is normally perceived a better indicator for soundings and other serious assaults. But, for some strange reason, it’s not normay collected and published nationally.

 

[Pickman's model]

A&E data is normally perceived a better indicator for soundings and other serious assaults. But, for some strange reason, it’s not normay collected and published nationally.

Also a lot easier to just ask the cops to use the five bar gate to count the number of incidents reported to them

 

[A380]

Also a lot easier to just ask the cops to use the five bar gate to count the number of incidents reported to them

If only... the many and constantly changing filters between the street and published crime stats make that less than reliable. Besides for some strange reasons quite a lot of people who’ve been stabbed don’t fancy a chat with their local constabulary.

 

[Pickman's model]

If only... the many and constantly changing filters between the street and published crime stats make that less than reliable. Besides for some strange reasons quite a lot of people who’ve been stabbed don’t fancy a chat with their local constabulary.

Didn't say better, just easier, more expedient

 

[A380]

Didn't say better, just easier, more expedient

 

[Pickman's model]

View attachment 152294 View attachment 152294 View attachment 152294

Don't give them ideas

 

[Athos]

I’m not sure what use the argument is of it being a ‘new’ thing. Almost like it doesn’t matter if we can trace it back.
Kids dying is actually just preserved heritage.

Surely the issue is why it has been catapulted back to the top of the news agenda. The cynic in me suspects that the Tories will soon need a lot of support from the right (who might otherwise be attracted to e.g. UKIP), and that an increasingly authoritarian approach (stop and search) to the problem of knife crime (a proxy for social problems caused by black people) might be convenient.

 

[Winot]

Police seek power to stop and search when their grounds for suspicion are unreasonable:

Police in talks to scrap 'reasonable grounds' condition for stop and search

 

[Athos]

Police seek power to stop and search when their grounds for suspicion are unreasonable:

Police in talks to scrap 'reasonable grounds' condition for stop and search

As is the current requirement for reasonable grounds restrains them! He smelled of cannabis, appeared to throw/swallow something, was nervous of my approach, saw us and changed his route etc., etc.

 

[Winot]

As is the current requirement for reasonable grounds restrains them! He smelled of cannabis, appeared to throw/swallow something, was nervous of my approach, saw us and changed his route etc., etc.

 

[Dogsauce]

The ‘moral panic’ is amplified by papers like the Standard to have a dig at Khan, for obvious reasons. Not that there isn’t a problem.

Wasn’t there also some transparently insincere banners/statements at the alt right Khan balloon bollocks about him being responsible for rising knife crime? (And how this should be a priority for him rather than insulting trump or whatever?).

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Surely the issue is why it has been catapulted back to the top of the news agenda. The cynic in me suspects that the Tories will soon need a lot of support from the right (who might otherwise be attracted to e.g. UKIP), and that an increasingly authoritarian approach (stop and search) to the problem of knife crime (a proxy for social problems caused by black people) might be convenient.

Yep. Whether or not they created it this is how they will use it. And to repeat violent crime in NY has fallen sharply since the ending of its racist stop and search policy. Even conservative commentators admit they were wrong on the issue. Yet now we have calls to extend it here.

 

[Edie]

The IWCA had it right last time (and you’re basically predicting the same)

Dealing with the renegades « IWCA national website

Thats really excellent. One of the sticking points for me has always been having a problem with people who have a non-work ethic, basically the bloody idle, and the problems they bring to communities. That attitude of entitlement is divisive and it breeds anti social crime, and the sooner it’s called out and not tolerated the better.

 

[Treacle Toes]

...I haven't read that article yet but will today...I suppose I am hoping the author hasn't over looked the fact that when there is no access to education, training or employment young people may appear like they don't have a work ethic. Also, drug dealing is a form of working, even if it isn't the kind of work we want people to be doing.

I wonder how many places there are in this country where there is adequate provision of education/training/apprenticeships/jobs and young people are basically saying nah, fuck that, I prefer crime! That certainly isn't happening in London...Perhaps someone can tell me where that is happening?

 

[GarveyLives]

 

[ska invita]

Someone was asking earlier about knife hospital admission stats

Knife-related hospital admissions rise

This group Redthread do really good work intervening with young people admitted to (primarily) south london hospitals....seeing it as a moment of possible intervention in their lives when they are away from their peer group and might be going through a bit of existential angst having been hospitalised.