ska invita
back on the other side
lol
these working class people...why cant they all take the bar?
Sunday sermons from the rich lawyer.... wake me up when its over
knife violence and murders among youth
- Thread starter DotCommunist
- Start date
these working class people...why cant they all take the bar?
Sunday sermons from the rich lawyer.... wake me up when its over
Treacle Toes
Time
It would be nice if the stench of desperate attention seeking bullshit didn't succeed in distracting/derailing this thread today.
If anyone has the time please listen to that vid I put up a few posts back.
If anyone has the time please listen to that vid I put up a few posts back.
Athos
Well-Known Member
lol
these working class people...why cant they all take the bar?
Sunday sermons from the rich lawyer.... wake me up when its over
I'm not a lawyer (and have never been a member of the bar). And, when I was a solicitor, I was employed; I sold my labour power, as I still have to do. I was then, as I have always been, working class.
But, as I said, let's not derail this thread (especially if it's for this ad hominem stuff, rather than addressing the point I made about Rutita's idea for working class improvement being to become capitalists).
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I’m busy all day so crack on without me
Treacle Toes
Time
Edie I'm not gonna get drawn into a discussion started by anyone who has put words into my mouth/posts (not you). I also won't discuss that derailing nonsense further unless someone starts a thread elsewhere. I give zero fucks what they think.
SWEET DREAMS!
Athos
Well-Known Member
It's not a moral judgement about him; it's about the best way for society to be. Some think that's an end to capitalism; others think it would be for individual workers to pull themselves up to become capitalists. Maybe start a thread?
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
Oh. I came to the thread to read what people had to say about knife violence and murders among youth.
Reading recent posts it seems I still have much to learn about the internet.
Instead of any wrangling with the nature of male violence on the streets, I'm faced instead with (probably) male willy-waving about class on an internet board.
In some ways it's pretty tasteless tbh.
Anyhow, my opinion is probably clear enough - we can and should talk about dynamics particular to certain communities and groups. This gets done a lot. The r/w are especially keen to underline the extent to which this is often "black" crime. When muslims are violent, it is "muslim" or "asian" violence. When whites are violent, it's "violence".
As it happens, in all cases it's nearly always male violence. But saying that is PCGM (tm)
Reading recent posts it seems I still have much to learn about the internet.
Instead of any wrangling with the nature of male violence on the streets, I'm faced instead with (probably) male willy-waving about class on an internet board.
In some ways it's pretty tasteless tbh.
Anyhow, my opinion is probably clear enough - we can and should talk about dynamics particular to certain communities and groups. This gets done a lot. The r/w are especially keen to underline the extent to which this is often "black" crime. When muslims are violent, it is "muslim" or "asian" violence. When whites are violent, it's "violence".
As it happens, in all cases it's nearly always male violence. But saying that is PCGM (tm)
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Wow. Well there it is. There’s the answer to the thread.
Treacle Toes
Time
eatmorecheese
He's fallen out of the car again
ffs
klang
klang
why would somebody do this? just to be vicious and cause problems?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Not sure how anyone can have confidence in the met, when they've been so cavalier with people's information, not that it's much surprise given that when I worked for a local authority archive we got an email asking for information regarding historical child sex abuse where the cop writing had included an email chain including dates of alleged abuse, a user's name, victim's name and details of what this person claimed to have suffered. Heads should roll over this, but I doubt anything more than a gently slapped wrist will result
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Stupidity
Saul Goodman
It's all good, man
But I have pulled you on your bullshitting in the past. I did it on your 'Online Aggressiveness' bullshit thread, without help from anyone else.
You invent shit and post it as fact to try to impress people. It doesn't impress people. It just makes you look silly.
Well done you. Have a fuckin banana.
Athos
Well-Known Member
I have watched it. It was ok. He made a handful of points I agreed with, and some I didn't. The best thing about it was his sincerity and desire to help the community. But it didn't really hang together that well, or say anything new or particularly insightful. What, in particular, did you think was "excellent" about it? What were the main points you took from it?
Oh gosh really? It really blew me away. I thought he spoke so powerfully. He clearly has an absolutely excellent grasp of exactly what the problem is, what caused the problem, and what will and won’t work in solving it. And more to the point, he’s one of the people on the actual ground working to solve it, working with young black men who he obviously sees as his own, who he feels for and takes responsibility for.
When he said ‘your responsibility does not end with your child’ I wanted to stand up and cheer. If only that message was shared by more of us. THATS the most important part of the fucking solution right there, in a sentence.
Not only all that, but he outlines clearly and with justified rage how the fucking system at city hall, and of the racism (and classism), that CREATES the conditions for these kids making these choices is corrupt and how it works. When he’s talking about what choices young kids have between drug running or money for the metre, THAT’S the problem. And then he gives an actual example of how Boris Johnson’s administration used cronyism to fuck over the working class solution to the problem. And THATS the problem too.
So yeah. Imo it’s men like that who should be leading the solution in London. Give that man the fucking job and the resources, and let him and the other black men who went to city hall that day make the changes.
We can all sit here in different parts of the country worrying at the catastrophe, and the papers can write their headlines of shock and bemused horror, but this man? He’s grasped it, and he HAS the answer.
Anyway, that’s how I felt watching it. How come you felt different mate?
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Athos
Well-Known Member
Yes, he spoke passionately. And respect to him for doing stuff on the ground; I agree with him that we all need to do stuff in and for our communities, of course. And I agree that was a good line.
But I don't agree with you that he clearly sets out the causes of the problem at all - it's a scatter-gun, ranging from parents, the police (who he wants to work with and see more of), racism in schools, and City Hall (with which he persuaded other people to work, despite their cynicism). In my opinion, he came closest when he was talking about poverty as the driver (and said that crosses racial lines). But he didn't really look into that with any depth.
I didn't really get a sense of what he thinks the solution is. What he'd do with these thousand black boys, and how that would make a profound and lasting difference. Or even how what he would do would address those things he identified as causes.
Treacle Toes
Time
It’s possible my critical appraisal of stuff like this isn’t top notch mind you
There isn't anything wrong with your critical appraisal. Paul Lawrence knows what he is talking about and articulated very well the range of issues as he sees and experiences them in his work and as a member of this society. It would be interesting to know what the mentor-ship program was of course.
Of course there will be people here who will criticise what he has said...they'll have zero experience of actually doing this work though and they'll have fuck all solutions to offer...they just know think better, but they clearly don't.
Athos
Well-Known Member
I explained why I didn't think his video was all that. You've not engaged with the content of my post, of course. Instead you've tried to smear me again. But you're completely wrong in that; I've got lots of experience of community youth projects, in both professional and personal capacities.
Thing is, in that speech (or whatever you want to call it) it came from the heart but with a background of knowledge and experience. But it wasn’t intended to be a comprehensive analysis. And it’s more powerful for that imo. He was speaking to other people.
But I bet my bottom dollar that he could he could (and has) that analysis. Because much in what he said showed the depth of his understanding.
The causes ARE scattergun. They are all those things! Driven underneath by a system based on classism and racism. That’s what he says (better than me).
And as for solutions, the solutions are what he knows. The solutions are ALREADY being offered by all the groups he links to under the post. The grassroots charities making a difference. Already doing the work. Crying out for money and volunteers. More kids and more parents wanting their help than they can give. Fund them.
And yes, the ultimate solution is to end the shitty classist and racist way the entire fucking system is based on. He knows that, we know that. But in the absence of total political... well, revolution, frankly... he acknowledges that as young men are dying NOW we need to act now within the system. And that means funding proper grassroots solutions (which already exist). And actually listening to the black (and white) communities where this complete atrocity is taking place.
Treacle Toes
Time
Athos
Well-Known Member
Yes, I certainly wouldn't take issue with the idea that grassroots organisations need funding.
Maybe he does have a really good analysis, but that wasn't clear from the video.
Albeit I accept what he did say was put passionately.
Don't get me wrong; it's not like I vehemently disagree with what he says. Rather, I found it a bit superficial and hackneyed.
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There. Imagine a world where all of them were funded to reach every young man, every family, every father and mother who wanted them.
Where our young people were inspired to lift their eyes, educate themselves, know they could achieve and that was a reality. Not one where more than 50% of black graduates can’t get a job.
Where a young man going off the rails WAS mentored, offered support, his family were helped by neighbours and these organisations, by the community.
This IS the future we want, and we HAVE failed them that it’s not the reality. That their reality is so shit that running drugs and carrying knives is the better solution.
I just wish there were more men like that in positions of power and less Boris bloody Johnsons.
Treacle Toes
Time
Worth a read for more details of what went sideways...
Mentor programme under scrutiny
Will Boris mentoring scheme at last succeed?
Mentor programme under scrutiny
Will Boris mentoring scheme at last succeed?
Athos
Well-Known Member
I'm sure more funding for those groups would be a good thing. As would fewer people like Boris. But neither of those things would mean there's sufficient e.g. jobs, housing, or educational opportunities for those boys (or other working class kids).
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