Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship, and beat people on board. Fatalities reported.

[likesfish]

stupid stupid tactic that lead to bloodbath if the mob decides to resist its going to go bad really really fast

 

[cesare]

I'd say a more useful aim would be making the next wave of blockade-busting ships even bigger and better.

Which is where Turkey comes in.

 

[danny la rouge]

I'd say a more useful aim would be making the next wave of blockade-busting ships even bigger and better.

Indeed.

 

[Spymaster]

Thanks for letting me know how little you know of close-quarters engagement.

Thanks for letting me know how brave and knowledgeable you are!

This forum cracks me up sometimes.

People sit behind their keyboards bigging up an action that has done nothing but compound the suffering and misery caused by the IDF, as if they were there themselves; swallowing HL and S whatever fits their political motivations and hysterically jumping on the slightest suggestion that doesn't.

 

[likesfish]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_K5b9pLiE_VM/SXysdOpkJtI/AAAAAAAAAF8/POlWNhXgGcY/s400/HMSDaring.jpg

 

[tarannau]

Yes, whilst you're a brave boy who often gets drunk and embarrassing on bulletin boards.


This posturing is a little wearing. I return you to the earlier indicative cunty comment.

 

[likesfish]

a bigger and better blockade runner

 

[Spymaster]

'Intentionally', or 'stupidly'? You're all over on this. Either you're hiding some other motive, or you really don't know what you're trying to say.

So "intentionally" and "stupidly" are mutually exclusive?

Riiight.

 

[Spymaster]

Which is where Turkey comes in.

Now that is the answer.

Not likely to happen though. I suspect that giving a naval escort to Israeli blockade runners would require much wider buy-in, regardless of the illegality of the blockade, since an international incident is virtually assured.

 

[Hocus Eye.]

That relates to another key issue about all this. We still have only very patchy accounts from the surviving passengers due to the Israelis still holding most of them incommunicado, but several of them claim that the Israelis were shooting before they tried to land commandos on board the ship.

The IDF account which dominates the media right now may not truthfully describe what preceded the fight in the image-enhanced footage from the IDF. As a result, discussions about the resistance of the passengers may be framed in deliberately misleading terms due to the IDF's account being virtually unchallenged.

The Israelis certainly got their propaganda planned well in advance. They made a radio call to the ships to stop and not enter the blockade area, and did this on camera quite deliberately.

The footage they took from one of their assault craft shows the action on the deck where there was fighting between the IDF commandos and the people on the ship. It was edited so that highlighted rings were put around specific parts of the image and who knows how long it was originally and how much was cut from it.

What is particularly annoying is that the Israeli footage is getting shown over and over again on the rolling news footage on all channels. Television news has a voracious appetite for pictures and if only one side of a dispute can provide pictures, their story gets told.

It may be though that this action in stopping the ships in international waters - which is illegal, will unite enough countries against Israel on the Gaza issue, to make a difference. They have lost Turkey as an ally (I didn't know that they were working together on military matters until this story broke) and they may find the current American administration cooling towards them at least publicly as exemplified by Hilary Clinton's recent speech. I wonder what gets said down the phone line though.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Well, Clinton has also backed an Israeli led inquiry so ...

I noticed the Israelis were well prepared though. First thing I did when I heard about this was try to determine the legality of the boarding and what did I find?

A bunch of Israeli PR sites already in place with their rationale for it being legal.

 

[Fedayn]

Depends. The consequences of not resisting on the boat was likely to be deportation. Those who chose not to resist presumably knew this. The consequences of not resisting the holocaust was almost certain death for you and your people.

I never mentioned the holocaust. And we also don't know that those killed were all resisiting. As such people may well have been killed even though they didn't resist.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Thanks for letting me know how brave and knowledgeable you are!

In comparison to you, anyway.
It's very easy to "lose" your weapon or to use it inappropriately in a confined area (it's why the British army insists on lanyards), because you lose the necessary distance between yourself and your opponent in which to deploy it. The man with a stick, however, merely needs room to raise it over your head.

This forum cracks me up sometimes.

People sit behind their keyboards bigging up an action that has done nothing but compound the suffering and misery caused by the IDF, as if they were there themselves; swallowing HL and S whatever fits their political motivations and hysterically jumping on the slightest suggestion that doesn't.

Wankers!

Show me where I've done that.

You can't, so I have to presume that your mentioning of this "bigging up" etc is an attempt at dissembling, to avoid the fact that you're once again talking shite.

 

[Spymaster]

I never mentioned the holocaust.

Yes you did, you made a comparison with the Warsaw ghetto uprising.

And we also don't know that those killed were all resisiting. As such people may well have been killed even though they didn't resist

Absolutely. But it is my contention that resisting the armed commandos almost certainly resulted in deaths that would not have otherwise been occasioned.

 

[Fedayn]

Yes you did, you made a comparison with the Warsaw ghetto uprising.

In previous questions yes, not however in this one.

Absolutely. But it is my contention that resisting the armed commandos almost certainly resulted in deaths that would not have otherwise been occasioned.

No, the Israelis illegally storming the boats led to the deaths, simpe as taht.

 

[Spymaster]

Show me where I've done that.

You haven't (which is why I edited out "wankers!". I realised that you may take it personally and it wasn't intended as such), but others have.

 

[Random]

People sit behind their keyboards bigging up an action that has done nothing but compound the suffering and misery caused by the IDF, as if they were there themselves; swallowing HL and S whatever fits their political motivations and hysterically jumping on the slightest suggestion that doesn't.

I think what is bothering most of us is your constant suggestion that the people on the boats included many provocateurs, who intentionally got others killed, for some murky reason.

 

[dylans]

Anyway, the issue now, and where our energies might want to be focused is on a) ending the blockade, b) an independent inquiry into the assault on the aid convoy.

Clegg is an obvious lever point in the UK government, given his stated beliefs before coming into government. We should remind him and his party that they used to believe that words hedged with conditions weren't enough, and that action by the UK government to end the blockade was necessary.

They may turn out to have no shame, but that isn't a reason for us to sit back.

Yes. We have the opportunity to nail his balls to the floor on this.

May I direct your attention to my oh so amusing and witty and very very clever and self satisfyingly smug post on Nick Clegg in the Nick Clegg is a two faced hypocritical bastard thread.

 

[danny la rouge]

No, the Israelis illegally storming the boats led to the deaths, simpe as taht.

Yup. Which Spymaster has already agreed.

 

[likesfish]

thing is somebody mentioned the exodus
when the Israelis used the same tactic against the royal navy 3 people ended up dead the the British looked the bad guys.
you'd think seeing history repeat itself the idf might have though hang on we are fast roping into a come on

 

[Spymaster]

In previous questions yes, not however in this one.

You asked a question regarding the consequences of resistance. I responded by giving you the possible consequences of resistance in two diiferent circumstances, that of the holocaust (which you'd previously brought into the discussion) and that of the Marmara (which is the subject of the discussion).

So for the 3rd time of asking, what is your fucking point?

No, the Israelis illegally storming the boats led to the deaths, simpe as taht

The Israelis storming the boat is the main cause. The futile resistance was likely a contributory factor to at least some of them.

Sorry you don't like that but that's how I see it. I'll happily change my view if I see evidence to do so.

 

[Fedayn]

You asked a question regarding the consequences of resistance. I responded by giving you the possible consequences of resistance in two diiferent circumstances, that of the holocaust (which you'd previously brought into the discussion) and that of the Marmara (which is the subject of the discussion).

So for the 3rd time of asking, what is your fucking point?



The Israelis storming the boat is the main cause. The futile resistance was likely a contributory factor to at least some of them.

Sorry you don't like that but that's how I see it. I'll happily change my view if I see evidence to do so.

My point is that your constant attempts to 'blame' those resisting flies in the face of reality, context et c etc. Faced with the situation those people on the boat were faced with I think it entirely reasonable, justified and understandable and quite frankly legal for them to resist.
The primary and overwhelming factor in the deaths was and is the illegal action by the Israeli commanders in defence of an illegal blockade. If they hadn't have done that then there would have been no deaths.

 

[danny la rouge]

The Israelis storming the boat is the main cause. The futile resistance was a contributory factor.

Sorry you don't like that but that's how I see it. I'll happily change my view if I see evidence to do so.

Remember Jean Charles de Menezes, and how cops intially said if only he hadn't acted suspiciously he'd still be alive? There were lies about bulky jackets and jumping barriers, and then smears, and so on.

Seeing any parallels?

 

[Spymaster]

I think what is bothering most of us is your constant suggestion that the people on the boats included many provocateurs, who intentionally got others killed, for some murky reason.

Well with misinterpretion like that, I'm not surprised your "bothered".

I simply haven't ruled out that such a stupidly futile "defence", may have been in parts, orchestrated by a minority of knobs who, in the words of pro-Palestinian commentator this morning, "wanted a dust-up".

That in no way excuses the Israeli action.

 

[DexterTCN]

Tony Blair, Representative of the Middle East Quartet of the USA, United Nations, the European Union and Russia, said:

"I express deep regret and shock at the tragic loss of life. There obviously has to be a full investigation into what has happened. Once again I repeat my view that we need a different and better way of helping the people of Gaza and avoiding the hardship and tragedy that is inherent in the present situation."

Wanker.

Did I hear that there were other ships going to test the blockade? PMQ is coming up at 3 but I doubt there will be much outrage their.

 

[Spymaster]

Remember Jean Charles de Menezes, and how cops intially said if only he hadn't acted suspiciously he'd still be alive? There were lies about bulky jackets and jumping barriers, and then smears, and so on.

Seeing any parallels?

If you're suggesting that all the Israeli reports are lies, the footage is doctored and the troops boarded with murderous intent, then I'll change my opinion as and when the weight of evidence indicates it. I've never sought to justify the boarding.

 

[Random]

Well with misinterpretion like that, I'm not surprised your "bothered".

I simply haven't ruled out that such a stupidly futile "defence", may have been in parts, orchestrated by a minority of knobs who, in the words of pro-Palestinian commentator this morning, "wanted a dust-up".

That in no way excuses the Israeli action.

'I simply haven't ruled out' that you are a racist and pro-zionist troll, who is blaming the peace activists for being shot.

See how it sounds?

 

[danny la rouge]

Did I hear that there were other ships going to test the blockade?

NY Times suggests so: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/02/world/middleeast/02flotilla.html

 

[Spymaster]

My point is that your constant attempts to 'blame' those resisting flies in the face of reality, context et c etc. Faced with the situation those people on the boat were faced with I think it entirely reasonable, justified and understandable and quite frankly legal for them to resist.

So we have a difference of opinion. I think they were fucking stupid. Furthermore I think that stupidity is likely to have resulted in preventable deaths.

The primary and overwhelming factor in the deaths was and is the illegal action by the Israeli commanders in defence of an illegal blockade. If they hadn't have done that then there would have been no deaths

Agreed.

 

[Spymaster]

'I simply haven't ruled out' that you are a racist and pro-zionist troll, who is blaming the peace activists for being shot.

See how it sounds?

You're quite right. It works both ways, and so it should.

The only difference here is that you've already decided what happened and are arguing to support that opinion. I have put forward some possible theories based on opinion and the evidence to hand and am prepared to be convinced either way.